When one thinks about the events of Jesus’ life and ministry, it’s natural to think about women. The Bible shows us a man whose inclusion of women was radical within its cultural context. Yet for most of history, his namesake religion has been marked by near-total domination of the patriarchy. What happened? Greg Prince once asked Chieko Okazaki a question that bears repeating: “…where do we need to go to get women in the Church where He wants them to be?” In this episode Cynthia and Susan pose that question again in a conversation shining light on a few of the women hidden in plain sight at Christianity’s beginnings.
Notes & Quotes:
NPC Headliner Luncheon: Elder David A. Bednar, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 5/26/22
Apostle David Bednar quizzed on declining LDS growth, same-sex marriage, ‘Under the Banner,’ by Peggy Fletcher Stack, Salt Lake Tribune, 5/26/22
Taylor Petry on Facebook, 5/27/22
The LDS Temple Ceremony: Historical Origins and Religious Value, by Edward H. Ashment, Dialogue Journal
Christianity is Many Things, Learning to See with Brian McLaren, podcast Season 3 Ep. 1, 5/2022
There Is Always a Struggle: An Interview with Chieko N. Okazaki, by Greg Prince, Dialogue Journal, Spring 2012
Elder Joanna?, by Kevin Barney, By Common Consent: A Mormon Blog, 6/16/2007
Mary Magdalene Revealed: The First Apostle, Her Feminist Gospel, and the Christianity We Haven’t Tried Yet, by Meggan Watterson
Breaking Down Patriarchy, Amy Allebest, podcast Season 1 Ep. 15
Who Was Junia, The Junia Project
Junia The Apostle and Mormonism’s Priesthood, by Taylor Petrie, Patheos, 10/5/2014
Shifting Footings, by Scot McKnight, Patheos, 1/2/2012
3 reasons Mormons don’t know what to do with the Apostle Paul, by Jana Riess, Flunking Sainthood, Religion News Service, 8/2/19
The Acts of Thecla: A Pauline Tradition Linked to Women, by Nancy A. Carter
Rebecca Solnit on Facebook, 6/2/2022
“We follow the pattern of the ancient church. … The pattern anciently was that the apostles were men.” — Elder David A. Bednar
“Jesus has not stayed the same for me through my whole life’s journey. And so I’ve had to be open to understanding that even though there’s one verse in Hebrews that says Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and forever, I have not stayed the same yesterday, today, and forever. The church does not stay the same yesterday, today, and forever.
And so in a very real way, Jesus has changed for me. Jesus changes for the world. Jesus changes for the institutions of faith, for the church.” — Diana Butler Bass
“It seems to me like Christ loved the women. I think he really included them in many areas where Jewish society excluded them. He didn’t mind breaking those rules.” — Chieko Okazaki
“……it is difficult for us to appreciate how radical Jesus was to include women in his entourage. Women simply didn’t travel with men to whom they were not related ……. Jesus ignored the ritual impurity of a woman’s menstruation, which normally would have been an impediment to this kind of frequent contact.” — Kevin Barney
“According to the canonical gospels, Mary Magdalene was present at the crucifixion, she was there at the burial, and she was there alone at the empty tomb. And she is the first to witness the resurrection. Let me say that again: MM was the one Christ resurrected to. In the Gospel of John, Christ gives MM special instructions and commissions her to be the one to announce the good news. Her. She is the one he chooses.” — Meggan Watterson (MM Revealed, p. 108)
“If Christian theologians in the Latin West were going to establish an exclusively male church, then the central figure to Christ’s story, Mary Magdalene, needed to be retold. Starting in the 4th century, with the formation of the traditional bible, all of the gospels that confirmed Mary’s spiritual authority and unique relationship with Christ were excluded from the canon and deemed ‘heretical,’ like the Gospel of Mary Magdalene, the Gospel of Philip, and the Gospel of Thomas. And the scriptures that confirmed and validated women’s leadership in the earliest forms of Christianity like The Acts of Paul and Thecla, were also excluded.” — Meggan Watterson (MM Revealed, p. 106)
“To be sure, the word ‘apostle’ undoubtedly has a narrow meaning (the twelve, Paul, etc) and it has a broader meaning (church-planting, founding, missionary). It still means ‘apostle’ (one sent by Christ) and not only that — this term describes the highest office for the first century Christians. And Junia is in that small and highly esteemed circle.” — Scot McKnight
“If we hadn’t silenced women and asked them to leave the altar from the start, I wonder what the world would be like now. And I wonder how girls and women would be treated if we would have been able, all along, to hear who Christ was, who Christ is according to women, to mothers, to daughters … Or to put it another way, I am excited to see how the world might change once we do.” — Meggan Watterson (MM Revealed, p. 47)
Katie
I think it makes us feel better to say we’re “patterned after the primitive church” because it helps us feel more mainstream Christian. But really we’re patterned after what Joseph Smith taught (and Brigham Young) who had male apostles and saw a male father God. Even when I’ve found things in scripture that Jesus taught (i.e no marriage in heaven), it doesn’t matter because Joseph Smith taught eternal marriage, even an eternal polygamous marriage. There’s this brick wall that I keep running into called “Modern prophets and apostles have the trump card over Jesus Christ.” It doesn’t matter what I can dissect and interpret from the scriptures because Joseph Smith already correctly translated the Bible for me. Mormons claim personal revelation but only when that personal revelation confirms what the prophets say. I can see why other Christians don’t think Mormons believe in the Bible and Jesus because we’ve changed things so much. It feels like we claim to have a higher authority (modern scripture) that makes the old authority null and void (the Bible). And there’s that brick wall again.
Scott JOnes
This one gets my vote as the best podcast of the year! Best in terms of what I learned and what I consider the importance of it. Your quote “… too late for my daughters” really hit home. All four of ours have moved away from the Church. Their view of women’s roles in the Church in general and specifically in the temple were the driving force for those decisions. They noticed the inequity from their childhoods — and as Young Women they complained about it often to me as a Counselor in Bishoprics. Daughter number three even challenged me to compare the curriculums of the YM to YM… we did it together and I agreed with her that the YW were not “getting the meat” of the Gospel as she so aptly said it. We wrote the Curriculum dept of the Church together with the deficiencies. We received a response 2 years later explaining that changes were coming… again “too late for my daughters”.
Chris Kite
You might enjoy my added verses for the Follow the Prophet song. They include Deborah and Eve. I will have to work on Junia. Susanna, and a Mary or two.
http://christopherwarrenkite.blogspot.com/2012/08/oy-vey-follow-prophet.html
Kathryn Sonntag
This episode is so important. Thank you!
Matt
Being retired, I listen to A LOT of podcasts while working in the garden. This is the first of yours I’ve heard and I would put this right up there with the best I’ve ever heard.
Obviously, this is not the last of your podcasts I will be listening to.