Thanks for a great article, Cynthia. I have to say, I cannot imagine a sacrament meeting focused on pornography. Do they not realize that there are lots of very young children in attendance? (Tell me you sit on the stand without telling me you sit on the stand!) If we expect children of all ages to attend the meeting, we should keep the content appropriate for children of all ages.
I printed this out hoping my husband will come across it and read it. I often have him read things I find but for a variety of reasons hope he picks it up on his own. I am soooo tired of the double standard, of being blamed for bad behavior of some men. I know a woman whose husband cheated on her. She was told to not make him leave the house, to give him more sex, and be patient with him. Why do we put up with such demeaning council from church authorities? I really liked your final analysis that "until we get honest about the harms of patriarchy, until we have more realistic teachings about chastity and purity, and tackle our shame culture, we are in no way equipped to deal with the bigger problem of what lies under the ocean." I would add also, that until women stop aiding and abetting the status quo we can make no progress. Until women stop taking responsibility for men's behavior and start trusting their own authority no meaningful change will occur. I no longer wait for men to come around. Generally, I like men but the harm of patriarchy is so insidious I don't have any hope for the Church. It's too ingrained. Thank you Cynthia for saying it so eloquently.
Wow. Cynthia. You have done such a great job at shinging a light on how loaded this topic is. I’m also rolling my eyes at the organization of the church for who they proclaim to be and how they are not aligned with true integrity. This line really hit me today, because someone finally said it out loud:
“In my anecdotal experience, most of the time there are zero consequences to porn users, like being released from callings or losing temple recommends. If anything, men are told to go to the temple more because it will help them stop. Yet other Latter-day Saints are denied access to the temple all the time for reasons such as advocacy for LGBTQ+ people, or paying tithing to charities instead of the church organization. We need to stop our pretense of purity and worthiness and admit the threshold to enter the temple is about loyalty to an organization.”
A very difficult subject as it breaks my heart to see the pain, burden, guilt and fear that the Church has thrust on women as a result. I see a lot of parallels to how masturbation was an all important topic in the 1970's. Lots of shame, guilt, threats of becoming homosexual, and damnation thrown around in public. They sure made every young man feel incredibly guilty and fearful. Guilt is a powerful tool in keeping people engaged in high demand situations. Elder Packer's "little factory" talk when I had just graduated from high school still makes me smile when I think of my parents' responses to it. My dad didn't say a word on our way home from the Priesthood Session of Conference. When my mom asked about what was talked about, her excitement immediately melted away. She uttered the word "ridiculous" and walked away. That talk was my own personal "jump the shark" moment on the subject. I wonder how many pamphlets of that talk I later threw away in ward libraries as a member of Bishoprics?
I am curious about your statement regarding temple privileges and being an ally for our Queer brothers and sisters. Years ago I was stake RS president and while serving organized cluster groups for those who were lGBTQ in our area and we met every month to discuss issues and we held showers for those who had adopted children or had babies through surrogacy; as Primary president I asked a Queer sister to help in one of the classes, etc., etc. My advocacy for my queer brothers and sisters has continued. I was Grand Marshal of the Utah Pride Festival three years ago, gave a rally speech, waved during the parade, gave another speech and then drove quickly to my LDS Branch to give a lesson, and then returned to the Festival activities. I have never been questioned by Church leadership about my involvement advocating for LGBTQ rights. I am deeply troubled if this has happened.
Listen to April 29 episode of All Out In the Open podcasts where Ben Schilaty talks about how his leaders withheld his temple recommend for a bit because he performed a gay wedding. Also this blog post of his. This is JUST ONE person, but there are hundreds more LDS folks who have been denied TR for supporting LGBTQ loved ones. You've been lucky and so have I.
Cynthia specifically mentioned “advocacy”. Allyship is providing support and encouragement. Advocacy is speaking up for change, especially within systems. So, trying not to speak for her, your allyship might not ruffle feathers if you are saying, in general, you support the LBGTQ community. Many people can safely say that. If, however, you are an advocate for LGBTQ members within the LDS community, that might imply that you are working for and speaking out in favor of change within the organization, specifically that all queer members of the church might have the same rights, powers, and privileges as any others. There is a difference.
This is absolutely on point! I also think that the church’s overall handling of pornography use is pretty bad. They throw “addiction” around liberally, often making men believe they are addicts when they aren’t.
Yea it was sooo hard for me to stick to the ONE TOPIC i chose to cover here and not everything under the waterline, including the addiction model. ~Cynthia
The hypocrisy and all the mixed messages are so hard! We don’t handle it well in the church and sometimes our “handling” of it creates further problems and confusion for everyone.
Are the man strongly encouraged to forgive their wives for any indiscretion as well? This line really struck me: "These are not small inconsistencies. They strike at the heart of a woman’s dignity and agency. They reveal an interpretation of Scripture that bends depending on whose needs are being prioritised — and too often, it is not the woman’s."
YES interpretation of scripture does indeed bend depending on whose needs are prioritized!!! YOU JUST SAID IT! ~Cynthia
Melinda, I read your writing and you had such good insight. I think a lot of religious women across the spectrum are taught that forgiveness is synonymous with excessively sacrificing their own needs and ignoring their own pain, in favor of fixing or “forgiving” men. It can be so hard!
Thanks for a great article, Cynthia. I have to say, I cannot imagine a sacrament meeting focused on pornography. Do they not realize that there are lots of very young children in attendance? (Tell me you sit on the stand without telling me you sit on the stand!) If we expect children of all ages to attend the meeting, we should keep the content appropriate for children of all ages.
according to my friend, not just sunday, father's day!
Good griefl. I mean, at least it wasn’t Mother’s Day? lol
Ditto. I was just coming here to say this. Can you imagine??
I printed this out hoping my husband will come across it and read it. I often have him read things I find but for a variety of reasons hope he picks it up on his own. I am soooo tired of the double standard, of being blamed for bad behavior of some men. I know a woman whose husband cheated on her. She was told to not make him leave the house, to give him more sex, and be patient with him. Why do we put up with such demeaning council from church authorities? I really liked your final analysis that "until we get honest about the harms of patriarchy, until we have more realistic teachings about chastity and purity, and tackle our shame culture, we are in no way equipped to deal with the bigger problem of what lies under the ocean." I would add also, that until women stop aiding and abetting the status quo we can make no progress. Until women stop taking responsibility for men's behavior and start trusting their own authority no meaningful change will occur. I no longer wait for men to come around. Generally, I like men but the harm of patriarchy is so insidious I don't have any hope for the Church. It's too ingrained. Thank you Cynthia for saying it so eloquently.
Wow. Cynthia. You have done such a great job at shinging a light on how loaded this topic is. I’m also rolling my eyes at the organization of the church for who they proclaim to be and how they are not aligned with true integrity. This line really hit me today, because someone finally said it out loud:
“In my anecdotal experience, most of the time there are zero consequences to porn users, like being released from callings or losing temple recommends. If anything, men are told to go to the temple more because it will help them stop. Yet other Latter-day Saints are denied access to the temple all the time for reasons such as advocacy for LGBTQ+ people, or paying tithing to charities instead of the church organization. We need to stop our pretense of purity and worthiness and admit the threshold to enter the temple is about loyalty to an organization.”
A very difficult subject as it breaks my heart to see the pain, burden, guilt and fear that the Church has thrust on women as a result. I see a lot of parallels to how masturbation was an all important topic in the 1970's. Lots of shame, guilt, threats of becoming homosexual, and damnation thrown around in public. They sure made every young man feel incredibly guilty and fearful. Guilt is a powerful tool in keeping people engaged in high demand situations. Elder Packer's "little factory" talk when I had just graduated from high school still makes me smile when I think of my parents' responses to it. My dad didn't say a word on our way home from the Priesthood Session of Conference. When my mom asked about what was talked about, her excitement immediately melted away. She uttered the word "ridiculous" and walked away. That talk was my own personal "jump the shark" moment on the subject. I wonder how many pamphlets of that talk I later threw away in ward libraries as a member of Bishoprics?
I love your parents replies! ~C
I am curious about your statement regarding temple privileges and being an ally for our Queer brothers and sisters. Years ago I was stake RS president and while serving organized cluster groups for those who were lGBTQ in our area and we met every month to discuss issues and we held showers for those who had adopted children or had babies through surrogacy; as Primary president I asked a Queer sister to help in one of the classes, etc., etc. My advocacy for my queer brothers and sisters has continued. I was Grand Marshal of the Utah Pride Festival three years ago, gave a rally speech, waved during the parade, gave another speech and then drove quickly to my LDS Branch to give a lesson, and then returned to the Festival activities. I have never been questioned by Church leadership about my involvement advocating for LGBTQ rights. I am deeply troubled if this has happened.
Listen to April 29 episode of All Out In the Open podcasts where Ben Schilaty talks about how his leaders withheld his temple recommend for a bit because he performed a gay wedding. Also this blog post of his. This is JUST ONE person, but there are hundreds more LDS folks who have been denied TR for supporting LGBTQ loved ones. You've been lucky and so have I.
https://www.benschilaty.com/post/i-worked-at-byu-as-an-openly-gay-administrator
~Cynthia
Cynthia specifically mentioned “advocacy”. Allyship is providing support and encouragement. Advocacy is speaking up for change, especially within systems. So, trying not to speak for her, your allyship might not ruffle feathers if you are saying, in general, you support the LBGTQ community. Many people can safely say that. If, however, you are an advocate for LGBTQ members within the LDS community, that might imply that you are working for and speaking out in favor of change within the organization, specifically that all queer members of the church might have the same rights, powers, and privileges as any others. There is a difference.
This is absolutely on point! I also think that the church’s overall handling of pornography use is pretty bad. They throw “addiction” around liberally, often making men believe they are addicts when they aren’t.
Thank you for saying this. The church really is creating more and problems with the way they frame and deal with this topic
Yea it was sooo hard for me to stick to the ONE TOPIC i chose to cover here and not everything under the waterline, including the addiction model. ~Cynthia
Totally get that! There’s always so much to say!
The hypocrisy and all the mixed messages are so hard! We don’t handle it well in the church and sometimes our “handling” of it creates further problems and confusion for everyone.
A total chain reaction!
I wrote on this theme, from a Jehovah’s Witness perspective, after pornography was mentioned in a recent Watchtower study on “Forgiveness”.
https://open.substack.com/pub/tothesistersinthehall/p/the-complexity-of-forgiveness-when?r=4byufx&utm_medium=ios
Are the man strongly encouraged to forgive their wives for any indiscretion as well? This line really struck me: "These are not small inconsistencies. They strike at the heart of a woman’s dignity and agency. They reveal an interpretation of Scripture that bends depending on whose needs are being prioritised — and too often, it is not the woman’s."
YES interpretation of scripture does indeed bend depending on whose needs are prioritized!!! YOU JUST SAID IT! ~Cynthia
Melinda, I read your writing and you had such good insight. I think a lot of religious women across the spectrum are taught that forgiveness is synonymous with excessively sacrificing their own needs and ignoring their own pain, in favor of fixing or “forgiving” men. It can be so hard!