I suggested my wife read your book. It prompted her to start listening to your podcast episodes. When she said that she had listened to this episode three times, I got the message loud and clear that she wants to talk about it. This Episode from the Elder Renlund quote until the end will be the topic of my next conversation with her AND our new Stake President. (He told me in my recent conversation with him that he wants to learn more from my experiences.) Asymmetry -- you mentioned "Who told you it is this way? Where else have we heard that question... "who told you that you are naked?" The answers to those questions are not God. Here is one time the Atonement is not the answer. Are women making an end run... looking for direct relationship with the divine? I hope so. "A Prophecy"... so very, very good. I am all for the Church to flourish through the gaze of women.
My immediate thought re: Renlund's use of the word asymmetry is that he's trying to reference the old refrain in the church that men and women are separate but equal, that they have different (asymetrical) roles, all of which are important, but each of which operates in different spheres. This is, of course, problematic at best, because as you said in the episode, this is just a continuation of an attempt to give inequality a positive spin, since the most "important" roles church leaders assign to women all exist outside the institution of the church, and thus carry no institutional weight.
As I continue to think about it, in a way, the process you described of women beginning to bypass the institution completely in order to reach God is the inevitable outcome of this asymmetry, since if the men tell the women that all of their important roles exist outside the institution, and they give them only very limited ways to operate within that institution, what reason do women have to stay within that institution? The only reason that male leaders seemingly give is that the men need them in support roles, which is hardly a reason at all, really.
Between about 55-65 min. in this episode, sparked by Elder Renlund's use of the weasel word "asymmetry" instead of "inequality" for roles of men and women in the church, Cynthia and Susan are discussing whether women in general church leadership positions are aware of discontent and unhappiness amongst the larger population of women in the church. Susan is inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I admire that inclination greatly; I'm bad at it myself.
However . . .
I was immediately reminded of something Kate Manne wrote in her Substack ("How Women Get Sent to the Doghouse," April 12): "Loyalty to the men with *real* power is the price women must pay for being granted a little power as a treat."
I suggested my wife read your book. It prompted her to start listening to your podcast episodes. When she said that she had listened to this episode three times, I got the message loud and clear that she wants to talk about it. This Episode from the Elder Renlund quote until the end will be the topic of my next conversation with her AND our new Stake President. (He told me in my recent conversation with him that he wants to learn more from my experiences.) Asymmetry -- you mentioned "Who told you it is this way? Where else have we heard that question... "who told you that you are naked?" The answers to those questions are not God. Here is one time the Atonement is not the answer. Are women making an end run... looking for direct relationship with the divine? I hope so. "A Prophecy"... so very, very good. I am all for the Church to flourish through the gaze of women.
My immediate thought re: Renlund's use of the word asymmetry is that he's trying to reference the old refrain in the church that men and women are separate but equal, that they have different (asymetrical) roles, all of which are important, but each of which operates in different spheres. This is, of course, problematic at best, because as you said in the episode, this is just a continuation of an attempt to give inequality a positive spin, since the most "important" roles church leaders assign to women all exist outside the institution of the church, and thus carry no institutional weight.
As I continue to think about it, in a way, the process you described of women beginning to bypass the institution completely in order to reach God is the inevitable outcome of this asymmetry, since if the men tell the women that all of their important roles exist outside the institution, and they give them only very limited ways to operate within that institution, what reason do women have to stay within that institution? The only reason that male leaders seemingly give is that the men need them in support roles, which is hardly a reason at all, really.
Between about 55-65 min. in this episode, sparked by Elder Renlund's use of the weasel word "asymmetry" instead of "inequality" for roles of men and women in the church, Cynthia and Susan are discussing whether women in general church leadership positions are aware of discontent and unhappiness amongst the larger population of women in the church. Susan is inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I admire that inclination greatly; I'm bad at it myself.
However . . .
I was immediately reminded of something Kate Manne wrote in her Substack ("How Women Get Sent to the Doghouse," April 12): "Loyalty to the men with *real* power is the price women must pay for being granted a little power as a treat."