Episode 220: The Women Are Not Okay | A Conversation About the Male Gaze
How much in the Church is still, in 2025, coming to us through the male lens? Pretty much all of it. Our scriptures, doctrine, ward boundaries, curriculum, conference talks, local leadership, and decisions are almost entirely by and/or about men. A women’s organization made and presided over by men is not really a women’s organization, is it? How could men ever describe or define women—our roles, attributes, or experiences—not as they see us, but as we actually are? In Episode 220, Cynthia and Susan wrap the season of zooming-out conversations by examining how the male gaze continues to shape and distort women's religious experience.
Notes & Quotes:
You Belong, Dieter F. Uchtdorf video
Sisters’ Participation in the Gathering of Israel, by Russell M. Nelson, 10/2018
Pornography, by Dallin H. Oaks, 4/2005
Mormon President Russell M. Nelson's First Press Conference, 1/16/2018
The Keys and Authority of the Priesthood, by Dallin H. Oaks, 4/2014
ALSSI Ep. 117, When Women Are the Problem
The Second Sex, by Simone de Beauvoir
The Second Sex, by Simone de Beauvoir, (Wikipedia overview)
Beauvoir on Women’s Complicity in Their Own Unfreedom, by Charlotte Knowles, Hypatia, 04/01/2019
Elder M. Russell Ballard: Women We Need Your Voices But Don't Talk Too Much
Elder Ballard: Don’t Talk Too Much, by Julie M. Smith, Times and Seasons, 9/9/2014
ALSSI Ep. 114, This is Your Brain On Church | A Conversation with Jill Evans Opdahl
Patricia’s Funeral, by K. C. Bramer, Say More: At Last She Writes It, No. 2, 10/2023
ALSSI Eps. 209 & 210, Does That Scripture Mean What You Think It Means? Marriage Edition | A Conversation with Dr. Jennifer Bird
Latest from Mormon Land: ‘We’re going to do better’ for women, says apostle; church buys more property, By David Noyce and Tamara Kemsley, 3/20/2025
Women at BYU’s Marriott business school feel the drag of sexism, LDS norms, by Ciara Hulet, KUER 90.1, 3/25/2025
Jared Halvorsen video
A Prophecy, by Annie Shattuck, Exponent II, Winter 2025, Vol. 44, No. 3
“Please note that anytime I use the word mother, I am not talking only about women who have given birth or adopted children in this life. I am speaking about all of our Heavenly Parents’ adult daughters. Every woman is a mother by virtue of her eternal divine destiny.” —Russell M. Nelson
“And young women, please understand that if you dress immodestly, you are magnifying this problem by becoming pornography to some of the men who see you.” —Dallin H. Oaks
“I have four sons who have all been bishops and I’ll tell you why, it was their mother….most of the good things that I have done and that my family has done, have been because of her.” —Henry B. Eyring
“President [Joseph Fielding] Smith explained, ‘[The Lord] has given to them this great organization where they have authority to serve under the directions of the bishops of the wards … , looking after the interest of our people both spiritually and temporally.’
Thus, it is truly said that Relief Society is not just a class for women but something they belong to—a divinely established appendage to the priesthood.” —Dallin H. Oaks
“No one can do what a righteous woman can do. No one can duplicate the influence of a mother. Men can and often do communicate the love of Heavenly Father and the Savior to others. But women have a special gift for it—a divine endowment. You have the capacity to sense what someone needs—and when he or she needs it. You can reach out, comfort, teach, and strengthen someone in his or her very moment of need.
Women see things differently than men do, and oh, how we need your perspective! Your nature leads you to think of others first, to consider the effect that any course of action will have on others.” —Russell M. Nelson
“We cannot meet our destiny as the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints….without the support and the faith and the strength of the women of this church. We need you. We need your voices. They need to be heard. They need to be heard in your community, in your neighborhoods, they need to be heard within the ward council or the branch council. Now don’t talk too much in those council meetings, just straighten the brethren out quickly and move the work on. We are building the kingdom of God.” —M. Russell Ballard
“Why was the casket off to the side? At every funeral I’ve ever been to or watched, the casket, a container of ashes or a large photograph of the deceased has been placed prominently in front. Yet, Patricia Holland, the reason why all those people were gathered there and online was off to the side.
As far as I could see, she had already spent a good portion of her adult life sitting off to the side. I’m guessing that when Elder Holland was president of BYU, she spent much of her time sitting behind and off to the side. When she was in the Young Women General Presidency she sat off to the side with the other women serving in auxiliary organizations. At every General Conference she attended once her husband was called to the Quorum of the Twelve, she sat off to the side with the other wives.” —K. C. Bramer
“The reason for the asymmetry between men and women regarding priesthood office ordination has not been revealed,” Renlund said. “Any proposed reason for that asymmetry with regard to priesthood office ordination is speculative.”
The absence of a reason, the former heart doctor cautioned, “doesn’t give us license to change the asymmetry just because we want to.
“…any unfairness that’s created by the asymmetry can and will be made right through the Atonement of Jesus Christ.” —Dale G. Renlund
“Men move from the profane to the sacred when they give up the self. Women move from the profane to sacred when they get a self.” —Elizabeth Gilbert
A Prophecy (selected verses)
5: I speak unto you according to your language, that ye may hear and understand. It grieveth me that I must use such boldness of speech concerning you, but notwithstanding the greatness of the task, I must tell you the truth according to the plainness of the word of God.
6: Ye have broken the hearts of the women of this church and have lost the confidence of them, and the sobbings of their hearts ascend up against you.
7: Ye say this is the church of the Lord, yet ye have made it into your own image — that of a man. It is written: It is not good for man to be alone; Male and female created he them; and, The man is not without the woman Therefore, I ask of you, where is the woman that God hath commanded should remain with you? Verily I say unto you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a man with power to divest it.
10: Are ye willing to listen to the women of the church who are in distress? Their lament sounds forth from Zion as a portent, yet ye do not hear; nay, neither do ye heed their reluctant footsteps marching out of Zion.
11: Do not quiet them with heavy-handed warnings against murmuring, for God has commanded: mourn with those who mourn and comfort those who stand in need of comfort. Brethren, bear witness to their suffering; sit down with them in their sorrow. The ear that heareth reproof abideth among the wise.
21: I saw women standing on mount Zion, raised up at pulpits, leading congregations, guiding the church out of obscurity and darkness. And the prophecy was fulfilled which was written: I will pour out my spirit upon my female servants in those days, and they will prophesy.
22: I saw in them the future of the church of Christ — the women setting up a standard to the people, carrying the young on their backs. I saw them bringing their sons in their arms, and their daughters carried upon their shoulders. Behold, the church borne by and born of women.
23: The LORD hath heard the mourning of his daughters and hath seen their sorrow. He will not suffer that their cries come up any more against you.
—Annie Shattuck
Between about 55-65 min. in this episode, sparked by Elder Renlund's use of the weasel word "asymmetry" instead of "inequality" for roles of men and women in the church, Cynthia and Susan are discussing whether women in general church leadership positions are aware of discontent and unhappiness amongst the larger population of women in the church. Susan is inclined to give them the benefit of the doubt. I admire that inclination greatly; I'm bad at it myself.
However . . .
I was immediately reminded of something Kate Manne wrote in her Substack ("How Women Get Sent to the Doghouse," April 12): "Loyalty to the men with *real* power is the price women must pay for being granted a little power as a treat."
I suggested my wife read your book. It prompted her to start listening to your podcast episodes. When she said that she had listened to this episode three times, I got the message loud and clear that she wants to talk about it. This Episode from the Elder Renlund quote until the end will be the topic of my next conversation with her AND our new Stake President. (He told me in my recent conversation with him that he wants to learn more from my experiences.) Asymmetry -- you mentioned "Who told you it is this way? Where else have we heard that question... "who told you that you are naked?" The answers to those questions are not God. Here is one time the Atonement is not the answer. Are women making an end run... looking for direct relationship with the divine? I hope so. "A Prophecy"... so very, very good. I am all for the Church to flourish through the gaze of women.