Will today’s young Mormon women be willing to seek a spiritual home within the same patriarchal church structure their mothers and grandmothers have inhabited? Susan and Cynthia discuss how the bridges they’ve built don’t seem to lead to a place younger women want to go. 

Quotes:
“Young women can be more than mere spectators of the work on Sundays.” “Young women want to be of service. They need to know they are valued and essential in the work of salvation.”
—Bonnie Oscarson, Young Women in the Work

“Men and women are different. What needs to be made equal is the value placed on those differences.”
— Virginia Woolf

Chieko:  “It seems to me that Christ loved the women. I think He really included them in many areas where Jewish society excluded them. He didn’t mind breaking those rules.”

Greg Prince: “So where do we need to go to get women in the church where He wants them to be?”            —Chieko Okazaki interview by Greg Prince, Dialogue, interview 11/15/2005

“I think women have yet to find their true place in the church. Our theology demands they have a larger place because if gender is eternal that means there are basic differences that go to the very core of our very being. And if that is true, we have to hear from women. They have to speak their needs, wants, and wishes and so all of our councils should have more women at every level, every place. I think there are things that have to be done in our times.” 
—Richard Bushman, Rough Stone Rolling

“Men are privileged in the church. Full stop. The way things are currently set up. As long as you say the Priesthood is reserved for only one sex and that that Priesthood is what qualifies a person for all major leadership and administrative capacity in the church, then that sex is privileged. You just can’t get around that. And no matter how much we say about motherhood or how much more spiritual women are, the fact of the matter is that institutionally and structurally, men are privileged.” 
—Patrick Mason, Planted

Episode Summary:
Part 1

  • Bridge building is something Cynthia and Susan have done with their daughters. They have created a way to be in the church that has worked for them and have tried to pass it onto their daughters. In Susan’s case, her daughters don’t want the bridge that has been created because they don’t want what the bridge is going to.
    • What was taught in their childhood that they will want to hold on to?
  • We can hold space for people that perceive or experience things differently from the way we do. Even people that grow up in our own homes. Every experience we have at church is individual for each person because of how we are approaching things. Perception is reality.
  • A need to discuss women’s experiences within a man’s church.
  • From a very young age, Susan realized some of the inequalities women face in the church. She became very vocal as a youth. Cynthia had a different youth experience. Susan can be a bridge between Cynthia’s experiences and those of her mother and grandmother. Going one generation further (to Cynthia and Susan’s daughters) it is hard to even ask them to accept how the church is now.
  • Myth: Women who have issues or pain with how things are for women in a patriarchal church are power hungry.
    • That is not true. For most it is more about representation. The experiences of women need to be better represented in places of authority (ie: when a new stake president was called, the area authority asked all the men stake leaders, bishoprics, etc who they thought would be good as the new stake president. No women were ever asked. No representation or voice.)
    • Susan’s Aunt Lillie was born well before women were able to vote. Because Susan knew her and heard stories, she understands the importance of women being able to vote. But Susan’s daughters have never known a time when women couldn’t vote so they can’t even fathom not having that!
    • When one group is put in charge of another group, there will be inherent difficulties. As a woman, when you go to every meeting of your life and see men on the stand, hear from men in the meetings, see men (and boys) administer the sacrament, that affects you internally. You are absorbing those things you see and experience.
  • At one point, it was scandalous to bring up the idea of women being a witness to baptisms. Now it is happening and “normal” behavior. If we aren’t allowed to even question things, how will things change?
  • Susan’s grandfather owned a dance hall. He used to have her go up to the dance and she would step onto his feet to do the foxtrot. She still can’t foxtrot because her grandfather knew all the steps, she just followed along. It would be nice to be able to dance on her own feet.

Part 2

  • Myth: Men and women have different responsibilities in the church.
    • Women have a lack of responsibilities
    • Young men are ordained at 11 years old. They play a vital role in the Sacrament. There is no equivalent role for young girls in the church
    • If young women and women didn’t show up on Sunday, church would still happen
  • Motherhood is often used to be placed on equal footing as the Priesthood, but not all women are mothers, so that is an unfair comparison.
  • Some men also see the need for more equality for women in the church.
  • Comparing Priesthood to motherhood is like comparing apples to oranges. One is administrative. A better comparison is motherhood to fatherhood. For Susan, it gets a bit closer to understanding when thinking about Priesthood keys. Perhaps women hold some facet of the key of creation that men do not hold. Motherhood is biological and a matter of circumstance where Priesthood is a matter of righteousness. Many people say women will spend their time being mothers and men will spend their time in service of the church, but that explanation breaks down when the hands-on parenting is done after 25 years or so. And that doesn’t speak to women who will never have children in their lives. Motherhood is something available to women across the world, whereas Priesthood is not given to every man across the world.
  • There is hope in the small changes that are being made in the church. (ie ministering, being a witness) Someone, somewhere is asking the questions.
  • What has been done to build bridges?
    • For Susan, Sunday dinner was a debrief session. Unpacking what was taught in church, rebuilding things in a way everyone could move forward. Especially in a package that worked for a woman.
    • In regards to the daughters that have left the church, Susan mourns the loss that the church will feel. They will not be able to bring their voices and unique gifts to the church. Those that step away from the church are irreplaceable. We have lost a little bit of diversity.
    • For Cynthia, she tries to show her children how she navigates difficult things in the church. She makes appointments with leaders to talk through things. She serves as a voice to those that are struggling.
  • “This is my church too and I’m not going anywhere!” —Cynthia
  • People assume that those that ask questions or bring up struggles are in the process of leaving the church. But it is often the process of trying to stay. Building the bridge is a manifestation of that process.