In this conversation, Cynthia and Susan explore belief and behavior in an attempt to answer a listener’s question, “Are you women true believers?” There are a lot of markers members use to figure out where other members sit on the spectrum of testimony and church engagement. We judge not just beliefs, but the language used to express them. But if we really must vet each other’s faith, a better question might be, “How does being a member of the Church change the way you live?”
Notes:
Holy Envy: Finding God in the Faith of Others, by Barbara Brown Taylor
Discourse, 8 April 1843, Joseph Smith Papers
Bethanie Dow
I am so glad you have spoken this unfortunate issue out loud, which is that (I also see) at church individuals using harsh judgement to determine if you believe the “correct” way. I am no longer given a calling by the Bishop and he only barely speaks to me when I force it with a hello straight to his face. Why?, because I have spoken out about patriarchy, hording of funds, and several of our policies that cause harm. I am amused that I am everyone’s favorite substitute in my ward, the Sunday School Teacher and the Relief Society President asks me every month to teach for them. God takes care of me in a way that is quite lovely and I can’t complain. How I feel now about our religion is nuanced and ever evolving, and I keep an open mind. I’ve decided that I will die, and I will die wrong about a lot of things, and so will all of us. I no longer need anyone to tell me how or what to believe. I choose relationship with the whole God Head, and pray for guidance, and let go, because I could be wrong but I go with what comes to me, and trust my own authority to hear/feel the spirit guide me. I no longer do many things that were expected of me as a woman at church or how I felt/saw it. I do enjoy a good discussion at Sunday School and I do love people, and they are more important to me than their opinion’s. I am okay that I don’t fit the Bishops “good LDS” and try to treat him as I want to be treated. Maybe we can listen to you all discuss how to navigate feeling disliked and stay and stay with love. My children no longer come, and most of my siblings no longer come and I stand with the rich doctrine of Christ in our church as I see it.
Thanks so much for your willingness to share truly how you feel. And this latest episode is another one of my all time favs
Michael Harrington
This is one of my favorite episodes. I believe that nearly all you said pertains to men as well. We men can take a lot from this to frame our faith in. Cynthia, can you text me that Joseph Smith quote you have in your phone notes? I want to memorize that for my arsenal.
Susan Hinckley
The link for the quote from the Joseph Smith Papers is on our website, in the show notes for this episode.
Andrew
My daughter has been recommending your podcast to me for a long time. I got the impression that it would be very touchy feely and not for me. D’ya know what? It was touchy feely….and I loved it. It is probably easier for me to appreciate the two of you discussing the way you feel, when I spent about 3 hours last night discussing with the stake president why he received so many complaints about things I said in sunday school about the martyrdom. I questioned whether it was appropriate for it to be described as a martyrdom. Did he die for his religious beliefs or did he die as a result of naffing off loads of different people by riding roughshod over the US constitution etc – I gave examples from books like Kingdom of Nauvoo. So, I am considered unorthodox and an enemy of the church for talking about things that Joseph Smith did. BTW, I consider myself to be a TBM (almost – not so sure about the Book of Abraham, although I do love it). I served a mission and my third child has just received a mission call. I actually believe most of Joseph’s core claims. I don’t think the issue is regarding orthodoxy (TBMism) but about fear and the way that majorities persecute minorities when they feel their way of thinking is being threatened. And so we return to your ideas about a Mormon’s need to “know”. The Mormon minority was famously persecuted by the majority, and despite that lesson from history, as soon as they are in a majority, they persecute the minority.
I listened to you two! You used some brilliant quotations. You had some great observations and ideas. I particularly loved that you were humble enough to change your minds as you chatted. What is the point in talking, otherwise? You sound like really lovely people. You see bad stuff going on at church and yet I am guessing that you roll with the punches. You have found a way to vent here, and make a difference, but it seems to me that you are probably not known for being trouble makers. Am I wrong? I would be interested to know. I really admire your subtlety and self-assured manner. BUT ME? I WANT TO FIGHT THESE PEOPLE! and so I end up being chastised betimes with sharpness. I wonder which is the best approach for the good of the religion. I ask that because I can’t imagine my children and their children remaining with the church with the current oppression of those who do not hold the majority view. They have been taught to be critical thinkers and to search for the truth and morality, and to live according to what they believe to be moral. That makes it difficult for them to stay, especially seeing as they are all WOMEN who were educated at Cambridge University. It is a tough time to convince them that the church is worth it, when the leadership are taking so long to respond to moral issues such as the subordination of women in the church. Sorry, I’m rambling on. Anyway, suffice it to say that I have “liked” and “subscribed”. I look forward to listening to more.