Cynthia and Susan are joined by guest Hannah Hinckley for a conversation about the ways in which men and women may approach or experience the Church differently. Hannah’s personal experiences offer a vivid illustration of the ways these differences sometimes have a very real impact on the lives of women.
Episode Summary:
- This episode is about the different ways men and women experience church.
- Susan shares something she wrote about how she recognized, from her youth, how men and women experienced things differently in the church. She brought up how things could have been different if she had seen women on the stands and heard their blessings. How life could have been different worrying about going on a mission instead of if she was going to get married.
- Susan’s daughter Hannah Hinckley joins the episode. Hannah is a divorced, single woman attending a family ward (doesn’t want to be an “elite single”). She is trying to reclaim space for herself in the church and with her God.
- The title of this episode comes from a conversation Susan and Hannah had. Hannah had observed her RS president as she dealt with her kids, the lace tablecloth, etc. and heaved a giant bag to get ready to leave. Probably while her husband sat in the car waiting to go.
- There are different types of church bags
- Mom bag- diapers, crushed up goldfish, etc
- RS president bag- trying to bring authority, visiting teaching assignments, rolls, everything you need in the bag
- Primary bag—crayons, treats, lessons
- Women basically carry around the whole church in their bags
- As a RS president, Hannah was invited to the PEC meetings. They were quizzed on the handbook and she was the only one (including the bishop) that actually scored 100% and knew the handbook. Even though she knew the handbook, she often wasn’t listened to. She had an experience of the men telling her they wanted homemade cookies and a care package for the students in the ward, but they weren’t willing to help out or listen to her expressing concern about not being able to do what they were requiring.
- Generally, single men in the church are having different experiences than the single women in the church. Single men are often seen as ‘grown-ups’ who are buying houses and often have more church legitimacy.
- Women in their 20’s that get to mission age are sometimes told, “Oh the Lord must need you to serve a mission!”
- Divorced men vs divorced women: Hannah feels divorced women are looked at with an intense amount of pity, no life experience, no input, etc. In singles’ wards, a man is almost applauded for being “back on the market.”
- What do you know?
Hannah: People are amazing creatures. We aren’t always wonderful but we have the capabilities to do wonderful things. And God loves everyone, even when she doesn’t.
- Hannah’s priesthood leaders: the first bishop was very supportive. He encouraged the divorce. The next bishop told her not to dissolve the temple divorce because at least she was still entitled to the blessings that come with the sealing. She felt devalued because it meant her salvation was dependent on a person that was not very good. The next bishop told her to focus on not becoming a “man hater.” The first singles’ ward bishop was only concerned if she was single or not, but that is not why she was at church. Her relationship status should not be the most important part of her. It is really hard to feel that her access to Heavenly Father was tied to a man. Her access depends on her and Jesus. Full stop. A woman most likely wouldn’t give the same response.
- What would help Hannah in her relationship with church? She would love to be treated as the adult that she is. She would like more focus to be on individuals coming to God. Our focus is always on families and not on the individuals.
Ziff
I’m a man, but I’ve hung around Mormon feminist spaces for a long time, and I’m always looking to hear more Mormon women’s voices. In this episode, I especially appreciated Hannah’s comments about being treated as less than adult for not being married. And her point that I think all of you echoed about the pain associated with having a bishop advise her *not* to have her sealing canceled because of the implication that her connection to God was somehow dependent on her ex-husband who had turned out to be an awful person. Thanks for explaining this issue so clearly.
Oh, and Hannah’s comment about men “arranging their plumage” in Sunday School in singles’ wards made me literally LOL! A perfect description!
Louisa
Hannah, I have a similar experience of getting married in the temple and later on getting divorced because of my husband’s infidelity. It was difficult to be a single, divorced woman in the church. If you ever need someone to chat with, I’d be happy to connect! I’m currently not active in the church, but do not have any animosity towards it. I tell part of my story at FreeBYU.org and my website is http://www.louisakillian.com with a contact link. Best of luck and thank you so much for sharing! It’s important to give voice to women in these places. I wish all church congregations could hold space for these conversations and perspectives.
Katrina
(I found out about this podcast through the salt lake tribune article and decided to go through to the very beginning. I’m finding this as a really nice spiritual space for me. Thank you!!)
Well this a SVU alumni. And I’m not mad about that comment. XD It looks like I just barely missed going at the same time, maybe a year or so, so I’m sure we know a lot of people in common, Hannah.
I also was a RS president when I was a senior there. (2011-2012) I think one reason I was picked was because of my “obedience.” It kind of sounded like there was a mission in the stake down to the single wards to teach the women leaders that they’re under the priesthood, or at least that’s how I interpreted it. I didn’t prefer bashing Mormon culture like a lot of the relief society leaders before me did. (I grew up with that in my homeward in California. So I didn’t really find it very important. At the time I felt it was better to avoid both the cultural things people felt were dumb or damaging AND the criticisms of said things, and just focus on “pure gospel.” I think I seriously offended some people because of that but I’m not sure. I think I might’ve been dismissive of people having those feelings and not focusing on positive things.) So because of that I think I was seen as someone who “got it.”
When I first was called my bishop was a little taken aback that I didn’t just accept the calling. I told him I wanted to pray about it first. He let me of course but I think he was like “I already got a spiritual confirmation, isn’t that enough?” But NOT praying about it myself seems against everything I was taught about how the spirit works and how to make important decisions.
There were also some things that I thought were totally normal growing up in my homeward in California (San Jose) that apparently aren’t. And that was one reason why I didn’t have as many problems as a lot of my peers with the patriarchy at first. They dropped some things to make women’s callings easier there. Like we never had a priesthood leader in the building during a relief society activity. I have literally been in the building by myself hundreds of times, and a lot of times with just my mom and me. (A lot of it was because she was a seminary teacher & ward organist. I would help her set up her class on Sundays. My bus stop was next to the church so after seminary I would wait in the church for awhile, make sure everything was locked, and then leave. I have even once been paid to “building sit” someone’s wedding reception decorations to make sure sons of priesthood leaders wouldn’t try to play basketball while everything was set up.) So compare that experience with once I was a relief society president and was informed I could not have a building key. (I’m pretty sure years previous they gave them and maybe it was just my ward) It was really really really hard to operate that way, and find a private place to have presidency meetings. Also growing up, my mom was the ward organist and I thought it was normal for her to have a key for that. I knew some organ when I went to SVU and would practice a lot but would sometimes get kicked out of the building because other priesthood had to leave. (I usually practiced when institute classes were going on so it usually wasn’t a problem… I just didn’t think about it). Recently I was talking to my mom about that because that’s been something that’s resurfaced in my ward now, and she told me that they had to really fight for keys in all the wards she’s been in. I just thought it was completely normal. And it should be…. Organ is not the same as playing piano!!
Anyways this is getting kind of long so I’ll stop there. Everyone was well meaning and trying to be caring while “doing the right thing.” They just didn’t always fully look at the consequences of how that really affected the women.
Niki-La
It is perhaps appropriate that my church bag wore out and broke this week after listening to this episode as I walked to church. All of the church that I carry with me dumped all over the sidewalk.