Episode 65: Healthy Boundaries, Healthy Women — with C.A. Larson
Episode Transcript
S: Okay C.A., you get a chance to tell us again—and that's good because I know it changes all the time—what do you know? What is something that you know today?
CA: Well, because today I've been thinking a lot about the topic we're going to discuss about boundaries, I think the thing that I know is that when I take care of myself, everybody wins.
C: Short and sweet.
S: Wow. Words to live by! Yeah, that's kind of the whole podcast.
C: Well, thank you for coming. Thank you, CA
* * *
S: Hello, and welcome to At Last. She said It. I'm Susan Hinckley, and I'm here with Cynthia Winward. Hi, Cynthia!
C: Hi, Susan, how are you today?
S: I am...I mean...I'm great! I don't have any internet. So we're recording under duress...and our guest has a broken leg! Cynthia, the things that women do! But—in that sentence was embedded some really good information: We have a guest today and it's C.A. Larson.
C: Yes!
S: Welcome, C.A.! We're delighted to have you.
CA: Thank you.
S: Can you just tell our listeners a little bit about yourself again, to remind them of what you do and why you might be exactly the right person— Oh, by the way, I didn't tell what we're talking about. We are talking about Healthy Boundaries, Healthy Women. So explain to us why we asked you to join us for this discussion.
CA: Well, thank you for inviting me. I'm really glad to be with you again. And I think the work that you're doing is really important. So thank you for letting me be a part of it. My name is CA Larson. I am a psychotherapist. I practice in Scottsdale, Arizona—have a private practice. I work with couples and individuals. I'm also a wife and a mother and a sister and a friend and many other roles.
S: Wonderful!
We are going to let Cynthia kick off the topic today, and she'll lead us through the discussion. So take it away, Cynthia!
C: Okay. Thank you. We're so glad to have you back, C.A. I've been looking forward to this. Because when you were on the first time we talked about modesty and body image, is that right? Yeah, and it was super helpful and we had such great feedback. So I knew when we wanted to do an episode on boundaries, I was like, "Susan, can you contact C.A. again? Do you think she'd be willing to come on and discuss this?"
So this is a favorite topic of mine and one reason—I'll give you a little background—is whenever I get like a new Relief Society presidency, they often hand out those surveys. Have you guys ever gotten those when there's a new presidency? What would you like to see, what kind of homemaking—or whatever it's called now—activities? Just different types of topics that we would be interested in learning about. And I always, always right there: "I would love a lesson on boundaries."
S: Really?
C: Yes, I do, Susan! This is important stuff to me, is if women could understand boundaries. But to date it has never happened. And I can't really figure out why. Either the presidency has no idea what I mean, or they do have an idea of what I mean, and they know that we could never teach LDS women to say no. I don't know, I don't want to be cynical, but I'm like—
S: Okay, but can I make a confession here? Because when you said that you wanted to do an episode on boundaries, honestly, Cynthia, I did not have one single thought about boundaries. And I mean, I didn't—I mean, no, that's not exactly true—I have thoughts about boundaries, just not in connection with my church life. Because here is the thing—and I should be just ashamed to say this, but I think it's really revealing—it honestly had never occurred to me that we might actually be allowed to have boundaries in our church lives! I mean that I just—I mean, who knew? I don't know, you just say yes to things and there are just certain ways...I mean, I don't know! I guess I felt completely powerless in—
C: This is fascinating, Susan.
S: —in that part of my life and I hadn't really ever considered that until now. Until I had to think about, "Why don't you have any thoughts on this subject?" Well, 'cause I didn't even know this could be a subject, so I'm so excited, soexcited for this conversation. I obviously have things to learn.
C: Well, Susan, then you sit back with a bucket of popcorn and listen to me ask C.A. all these questions and bask in her knowledge. How's that?
S: I think that's exactly what I need!
C: Yeah. Well, one of the reasons I want to discuss this is in Episode 62—which we just recently did, When is Enough Enough?—we talked about our experiences giving and giving until we have nothing left to give. And in response to that episode, a woman wrote to us and quoted the song, Give Said the Little Stream, and this was her message to us. She said:
"Throughout the whole podcast, the old primary song, Give Said the Little Stream kept coming to my mind. Do you know how many times we sing the word 'give' in one verse? 10! 10 times! It started when we were just babies."
C: And it was that last line, "it started when we were just babies," of teaching us to just give and give and give. And of course, good boundaries are more than saying, "No, I can't give right now," but I think it does entail being able to say no. So I have a picture in my head of every LDS woman saying no all at once. Just for like one Sunday at church. And I have to admit, I get like a little wicked smile across my face at the idea of most LDS—all LDS women just saying, "No, that's not going to work for me today. I'm not doing whatever." It's something that I see so often, just like this quick email that I read from someone, which is give and give and give and give, and women are tired. And so that's why I'm excited for this conversation today.
So C.A., can we just—we have a few questions we'd love to just ask you, and just take it away. And the first question we have is, first of all, can we even—can we ask you to define boundaries? Let's start from square one.
CA: Yeah. I think that's a really good place to start. And boundaries come in all kinds of different forms. There's physical boundaries, verbal boundaries, emotional, sexual, material things, time—and that's probably just a short list. There's a lot of different boundaries, but I want to try to give a definition that kind of encompasses all of those. And then maybe talk a little bit more in detail about what that specifically looks like because, I think like Susan, there's a lot of people that just kind of think, "Well, what are boundaries? What would that look like to have boundaries as far as church is concerned?" So this is just kind of more of a—I don't know if it's a Webster's definition, but it's just kind of a definition: Personal boundaries are guidelines, rules, or limits that a person creates to identify for herself what are reasonable, safe, and permissible ways for other people to behave around her, and how she will respond when someone steps outside these limits. They are built out of a mix of beliefs, opinions, attitudes, past experiences, and social learning. Which means they're not the same for everyone.
And I often tell women that I work with in my practice to follow their intuition, which I think is a combination of gut feelings and inspiration. Together, that's my definition of intuition—not a very precise one, but I think it just gives a feeling of how do we come to know or understand what that would look like for me as an individual, instead of just some kind of definition we put up on the board?
I kind of went through and made a list of what some healthy boundaries are and what some unhealthy boundaries are, because I think that that might help the listener to just get in their head, "Oh, this is what we're talking about. These are things that I do or I don't do," or, "Oh my gosh. Is that a boundary?" So is that okay if I just share that list?
C: Wonderful.
CA: And it's definitely not exhaustive. That list could go on and on and on, but I just picked ones that I hear a lot, and from women in my practice. So here is a list of healthy boundaries:
asking for what you want and need from those around you
taking care of yourself
being comfortable saying no, like Cynthia's image of everyone saying that together
what we can give is enough
making choices based on your values and beliefs
feeling safe and valid when expressing your emotions
acknowledging what you're feeling
feeling equal, and that you matter
knowing that your happiness is your responsibility and knowing that you're not responsible for someone else's happiness
being comfortable disagreeing
saying yes because you want to, not out of obligation
being comfortable changing your mind
feeling supported to pursue your own goals
CA: Okay, so those are some healthy boundaries. Now for the list of unhealthy boundaries:
expecting others to know what you want or need
saying yes to things you don't want to do
making decisions based on the opinions of others
stuffing your feelings in order to keep the peace
feeling that others are more important than you
expecting someone else to make you happy
thinking you can change someone and make them happy
being afraid to disagree
ignoring your feelings
being afraid to express your thoughts and ideas
giving away too much of your time
feeling guilty for dedicating time to yourself
you feel taken for granted by others
you permit people to touch you when you feel uncomfortable or want them to stop
you have toxic relationships
you feel like you have to earn respect by being nice
you are what other people want, need you to be and not what, who you need to be
you have chronic fear about what others think of you
CA: So, like I said, this list could go on and on, but I think this kind of highlights some of the things that I hear and talk about with women in counseling. And one of the things I will say when people have a hard time thinking about what a boundary is, I like to do analogies or mental images. And I'll say, "Imagine that there's this picket fence around you and there's a gate and you get to decide who gets to come in that gate..." Some people just need to stay outside. Some people you let in, but they'll just be on the periphery. Some people will come closer and others very close. You get to decide who's safe and who gets to be in. And that applies in all areas of your life.
C: Of course.
S: That list kind of just makes me need to lie down though. I'm not going to lie.
C: I was just going to say that.
S: That list is hard when I consider it in context of the Church—there are so many things—there were things on both the healthy and the unhealthy side that just kind of went right through me because I recognized myself in that list.
CA: I think we all probably do, if we're honest.
C: So C.A., as a therapist who helps LDS women, I know you said on our first episode that you used to work for LDS Family Services, is that correct?
CA: Yes.
C: And I'm sure you do see—you can speak to that or not, if you want, if you see LDS women now—but for someone who has seen LDS women before in your practice, can you describe how our Mormonism makes boundaries a particularly relevant topic?
CA: Yes, and I do still see a lot of LDS clients, even though I don't work for LDS Family Services anymore. So I think, just to just jump right in with two feet, some of the problem is that we are taught—some people might even say indoctrinated—from the time that we're young about what our role is in our families, at church and in the world. And it can be really confining. It doesn't make a lot of space for individual differences, for choices, for goals, or even for things that are out of our control. So it doesn't allow space for us to develop our own needs and wants, which then makes it difficult when I ask women, "What is it you need? What is it you would want to see happening in your life?" And I get kind of a blank stare from them. And I realize that comes from this kind of conditioning.
And this is problematic because I think, you know, we have this laser focus on the family, and that we are supposed to be wives and mothers and that's our identity and our destiny. And so we don't teach to be a person first, to understand self and to become an individual. And so that's oftentimes a starting place for women who feel like they've never had the right to look at what their needs and wants are. Because we're told that women are mothers and men have the priesthood. And that's always bothered me because I think it's comparing apples and oranges! Some women are mothers and some men are fathers and those are equally important roles.
So recently I met with a woman—a young woman—and she was married and had two young children and she'd followed that pathway. She said, "You know, that's exactly what I did. I followed, I did all the right things and I found someone and I married in the temple and I have two children. And I'm really struggling. I'm really depressed. And I don't know why, because this is all I ever wanted, right?"
And that, I mean—that's exactly how she presented it to me. Like, "This is what I wanted, right?"
C: Like a question.
CA: Yeah, like I could validate that—
S: Could validate it!
CA: —and say, "Of course that's what you wanted. That's what we're taught, right?" But she could not even think about what might be missing. And I really believe it's because there—she hadn't defined herself before. She then went on to choose this role of wife and mother, which it wasn't that she was saying, "I don't want to be a wife. I don't want to be a mother." It's just that, "This isn't what I expected. And now what—now what do I do?" So I think that then makes it really difficult when that's our template and we don't have anything else to go off of.
S: Don't you think it honestly never occurs to a lot of women that they can ask themselves those kinds of questions, let alone should ask them?
CA: Absolutely!
S: I just don't think—I think as our listener said, it starts when we're babies. I think when that happens, you really don't grow up thinking that those questions would be relevant to you.
CA: No, not at all. And so there's just this void then. And think about single women too, who, when that pathway they thought they were following doesn't turn out to be, and then they're just kind of at a loss and adrift and feel like they aren't then fulfilling the measure of their existence, which to me is incredibly sad. Because I think if we were able to focus more on self and individuation at the beginning, then everyone could have a pathway, Even if all pathways didn't look alike.
C: C.A., I actually had those words go through my head when my husband and I first found out we couldn't have biological children, and I was in the temple and it talked about, you know, multiplying and replenishing or whatever. And I was like, "Well, we failed at that!" And I just remember sitting there going—and I'm so embarrassed to say this, but I was a young!—and I said, "Well, what do I do now?" Like, I didn't even, I didn't really know what questions to ask either, Susan, like that was kind of the plan! And that was the moment I found myself in. And I mean, luckily I came to my senses and I was like, "Wait! What are you talking about? You're a person! You can—"
Anyway, this isn't about me, but I can empathize that this happens to a lot of women, whether, you know, single or infertility, or like you're saying, C.A., a woman who has two kids and she's like, "Oh my gosh, this didn't quite fulfill me the way I thought it would..."
CA: Oh, for sure. And even when you have found a companion, and I've always really liked the way Kahlil Gibran in his book, The Prophet, talks about men and women being two separate pillars that stand separate, but are together. They hold up the structure, which is the relationship and the family, or, you know, one or both. And—but that there's two separate individuals. And I had my husband build me this little thing with these pillars, and this roof. And I have pillars of different sizes and different thicknesses and whatever. And I said, "This is what it looks like when one pillar is big and one pillar is tiny. This is what happens to the roof. You know, there's no stability there." Just to help women to see that this is important, that we are both two individuals strong in our own rights and knowing ourselves. And then we come together to form this relationship and this family. And that's what gives it a good foundation, is if we have those two separate strengths together.
So, you know, whenever we have rigid roles, I think it's damaging. And so I think that's where we have to kind of relook at how we're teaching, how we're having young women think about as they get older and, you know, what their roles might be. That there isn't just this rigid role of, "I have to do this One Thing." Because look at our statistics in the church, that is less than 50% are going to have what that looks like, that they've been taught since they were in Primary.
CA: So I think probably the most important message, as I was thinking about what is the one thing that I would want to have people take away from our discussion today, and I think it's that there can't be boundaries when there is no self. So, if you don't know that the self has rights, then there is no self.
And as I was thinking about—I was thinking about the word selfless and I thought, you know, I think that means less of self. Because it's the other—I felt like the podcast you did on giving and giving and giving, When is Enough Enough—that's how we're taught. We're taught to give and give and give until there isn't anything left and then you'll be blessed, and it's crazy. It's really crazy! It's not selfish to have boundaries, but women in the church think it is. So we have to reframe that and say, "Self-care means you value yourself, and you know that it then gives you the ability to care for others."
S: So can I ask you a question? Is it problematic then that men also are raised with the same ideas that women are? I mean, I guess what I mean is in a lot of Latter-day Saint marriages, would it be—would it feel—destabilizing or challenging to the man if a woman suddenly decided to claim herself in ways that she hadn't previously?
CA: Oh, absolutely. And because I do couples therapy, I see that a lot. I see that when we work really hard to—I think most men think they want that, and actually, I think they do want it—they want it in theory. They just—if they haven't had it in the relationship, they don't know what it looks like in practice. And so when a wife starts to speak up for herself and say, "I need this," or "No, I don't want—that's not the direction I want for us to go. Let's discuss this," or—
And it's not about one taking over the other. It's having this equal presence and this equal say in what goes on in the relationship. Absolutely, the whole system gets up—the apple cart gets upset, and has to be realigned. And that takes a lot of work with the man and the relationship too, to say, "You know, remember we're making these changes because this is good for both of you, but it's change and it's hard and you're going to have to adjust according to that change. But the end result is really something that is so much better than what you had before."
C: So it sounds like there's a growth zone. We're going to talk about growth zone again, Susan!—here's a growth zone that couples have to go through.
S: Always.
CA: For sure.
S: But can just a woman go through with that, without the man being involved in that process?
CA: Yeah, they can. It's harder. I really love it when we can include—especially if that's important to the woman that, you know, she's gaining a voice and she's understanding herself and she wants to share that. But I think part of it is when we feel empowered, when we learn that about ourselves, then we in turn can share that with everyone in our world, right?
S: Right. Yeah. I'm just—I'm just thinking about women who might be—who might not feel at liberty to set boundaries.
CA: Oh, absolutely! And it's baby steps, you know, we start really small and sometimes it does really highlight some of the things that might be going on in the relationship that they hadn't really noticed because they just let them happen. So it definitely isn't without challenges. I wouldn't want anyone to think, "Oh, this is so easy! I can just stand up for myself now and have a voice and talk about what I need and set boundaries!" That's, you know, always going to be a challenging thing and in the church, it's probably even more challenging because we basically—we answer to men. You know, men have the power, and men are in control and we're basically expected to do what they say.
They have the inspiration. It's not that we don't believe in personal inspiration, but when you talk about the big picture and overall, they are the ones that have that power and control. You know, I know sometimes it's kind of interesting to think about, where does that come from and why do we think that just having the Y gene, um, gives males control, and that even 12 year old males in the church have more power than mature women? And I know that's a struggle for some women and you know what, I want to make sure that I qualify that with saying, I know of many, many kind compassionate church leaders who are men, who guide and advise and respect boundaries.
But unfortunately, almost daily, I hear stories of Priesthood leaders demanding that what they say must be obeyed. I have stories of leaders asking very inappropriate questions to women, and even to young women. I hear of leaders saying that a young woman would never have a man want her because she'd been a victim of abuse. I've heard of leaders turning a blind eye to abuse of children, to protect a Priesthood holder, and of condoning domestic violence and blaming and shaming women that it is their fault that their husband lost control. And that's a very short list too—that list could go on and on. We don't have enough time, I just wanted to say enough to get the picture of why this is a problem sometimes. Because those are boundary violations. And do you think that in these instances, these women stood up to the leader? Or even walked out on them?
C: Probably not.
S: No, probably not.
CA: Maybe one in a hundred. Because when I suggest this to women, they say that they could never do it. It's not in our training. Is it isn't even on our radar that we could stand up and say, "You know, that was inappropriate. I'm not going to answer those questions," and walk out. Or say, "I'm not comfortable with the tone you're using with me," or, "That's not okay for you to be saying that." But that is not really in our repertoire of things that we have been schooled and taught to say in those kinds of situations.
C: No.
S: Well, and I think it's really problematic that both sides have been conditioned that women answer to men and that men are in authority over women. I mean, Cynthia and I will often say to each other, even the best men. And so I think it's true in this case that even the best men have grown up with the same kind of conditioning that we have. And so it's very easy to fall into patterns that, when you step back to look at them, it's pretty obvious aren't healthy. But in the situation, you're both doing what you know to do.
CA: No, it's really true. And I think you've said probably—I think I've heard in some of your episodes, and we may even talk a little bit about this in my past episode about modesty—is that you, we even start to hear some of that messaging from young men. You know, before they're really even—that they are picking up and being also trained to say things and use that kind of language, even before they're fully grown. So I know some women think that women do everything in the church and have none of the power and that any suggestion of women having power is window dressing. I've even heard that the idea of a Relief Society describes what our purpose is as women.
C: Oh!
CA: And I think we can't get away from the fact that women answer to men. We answer to them in our callings and men call us to our positions. And we are conditioned to not say no.
One of my own personal experiences with this was when I was a young mother in Minnesota, like you, Susan.
S: Oh dear.
CA: And I had just given birth to my third child. My second one was only 16 months old and had just had open heart surgery a few months before. And I brought this third child home from the hospital on a day in January, where a record was set with the temperature being minus 75° with the wind chill.
S: Oh my goodness.
CA: You can remember some of those days, I'm sure.
S: Yes.
CA: So three days later, three days out of the hospital, a counselor in the Stake Presidency asked to come by. And he was a member of our ward, so I thought it was just a visit. We knew him, you know, he was a friend, but when he came, he was dressed up and he had someone else with him, another man in the stake. And he said he had a calling he wanted to give me. I was thinking, "This must be for my husband," right? Because I've just given birth to a baby, right? He said he had a calling he wanted to give me. And I'm kind of like—I'm kind of in a daze. Anyway, he said he wanted me to be Stake Young Women's President.
And the rest is kind of a blur. I said yes, because that was my conditioning. And because I think I was somewhat in shock, I was healing from a C-section. He did tell me I could have a little bit of time before I would have to start actively doing my calling. And I want it to be known, I love working with the youth. This would be a great calling, right? And I did love it. It stretched me, and I grew. We had this huge stake that went all the way across Southern Minnesota, into Wisconsin and into South Dakota. So there was a lot of travel that was involved in it to all of our different wards and branches, but after he left and when it kind of sunk in, I just remember I cried and cried and cried. I thought, "I don't even know how I'm going to handle being the mother of three young children with a husband who is a surgical resident with a terribly unpredictable schedule." But I didn't consider saying no.
C: Wow.
CA: And even though it was wonderful, I struggled a lot! And it affected my marriage, it affected my mothering, and the part I don't even think I looked at was how it affected me as an individual.
C: Yes.
CA: I think it was a slow lesson that I learned over the years, but I have learned about boundaries and to say no, and to realize that many callings are inspiration, but many are also desperation, and that no one, not even a Bishop or a Stake President knows what's going on in my life and inside of me, like I do.
C: Wow, that's pretty powerful, C.A.
S: Wow.
C: It reminds me, Susan recently said something on an episode about another Minnesota time. And you had said, Susan, what was it? "They don't know the full picture."
S: Yeah, I just said that, "They don't know. You don't know everything about me."
C: All right, C.A., I have another question to throw at you. How does being in a patriarchal religion exacerbate the problem of boundaries, or lack of boundaries?
CA: Well, I probably partially answered that, but I think the answer is also in the question.
C: Well, yes.
C.A. Men make decisions and women follow, because that's what patriarchy is, right?
But the men are the ones that are the leaders and in charge and our place is clearly defined, but not by us. And that's the antithesis to personal boundaries—if you do not set them. And at its worst, it can be abuse, but actually even worse than abuse is sometimes the unspoken thought that you're not abusing women if you own them. And I think that's it at its worst. That is it when it's done with unrighteousness, and that it can be seen as a form of slavery. But at its best, they still have dominion over—and they call it stewardship, which is also a good word, but even that has some form of control involved with it.
C: It does.
CA: So we get silenced by that. So often our voices aren't heard because they are not the ones that have carried the weight. And unfortunately, not only do we get silenced by men, but sometimes we also get silenced by other women.
C: Yes. That's the worst of it, actually. But as you're—C.A., as you're saying, kind of defining stewardship—uh, you know, we call it stewardship in the church, but it's actually a form of control. Boy, now that goes straight to my heart. I don’t know how I never saw that before, but yeah. I remember I was in a Stake Young Women's Presidency a long time ago, and the—I was speaking in church and a High Councilor was speaking with me and I introduced myself to him and I said, "Oh, I heard you were just the one assigned to be over Young Women's." And he said, "Actually, I'm the leader assigned to work with Young Women." Like he didn't like how I phrased it, that you were the one "assigned over" us.
CA: Over it.
C: And so I can appreciate that he was trying to be like, "No, I'm your equal." And yet in the end—um, when I have things that I need to move forward with, we have to go through you.
CA: Yeah.
C: We go through you.
C: Right, you don't just get to do it on your own because you have the inspiration and you know the direction you need to go. There's always this gatekeeper that we have to go through to do things because that's what the hierarchy is. That's what the patriarchy is.
And I know some women will just say, "I choose this. I choose to be obedient. I choose to be submissive to my husband and the church leaders. And why don't you?" I think that is a learned behavior for them. And maybe it also has fear in it, but it also can be used as a weapon to blame and shame other women, that they're not following this higher commandment of just being obedient. That these are the roles that God wanted, that this is how He designed it. And don't question it, right?
C: Yes, yeah.
S: Yeah. Definitely.
C: That's how Susan and I—we've said before, "Shame alert!" on the podcast. Because that's how other women shame other women is, you know, "Why can't you just follow this, God's higher law, His form of government?" to kind of put me in my place.
CA: Yeah. Yeah, I know it is. It's kind of the ultimate weapon really, you know—
C: It is.
CA: —and I think it's been used all through—it's not just used in our church, I think it's used in other churches, but it definitely goes all the way back in our history about kind of—I even think men getting, having women that they know are going to support them and do the party line and shame other women when they don't follow. They then use— I mean, I think you yourself said something about this, Cynthia, in one of the podcasts, about like "strong women don't always get chosen to be in positions because they're too outspoken." And the priesthood leaders want someone who is going to follow, tow the line and, you know, be submissive and do what they say and teach other women to do the same.
C: Yeah. I mean, I get that it's more efficient that way for them, that if we just go along with what they say, then things move along more quickly and efficiently. Uh, but it's not working.
CA: Yeah. Yeah, not so much.
So as I was thinking about this topic—as I've been kind of been musing over it for the last month or so, and just making some notes—one of the things that came to my mind was about what we were talking about with like, "How do women then start to kind of look at this differently and free themselves?"
And I thought about—for some reason, I just had this image of—an animal in a cage. And that when an animal has been in a cage for a long time, even if you open the door to the cage, oftentimes the animal will stay in—stay in the cage because that's what they know. That's what they're conditioned to. And the idea of venturing out is very scary and fearful.
"What's out there? I know what's in here. And I'm going to get my food and my water, and so I should just stay in here because what's out there is an unknown." And I think—you know, women will say that to me. "I don't know who I am, especially without roles that the church has given me, whether it's a calling or wife or mother. And so how can I find this out, and how can I make it safe, and how can I set boundaries if I don't even know what those boundaries could possibly be?"
And then I think, you know, it becomes this excavation of self to really go back and find out who are they as a person and what are their needs and wants. And what, in that framework I talked about at the beginning, you know, how would they fill in those blanks? And then trying to kind of reclaim pieces of ourselves? Because I think women in the church, we give them all away. We give all those pieces away.
S: That's an important point to me because I think that's part of what really makes it scary. If you're not doing this kind of work on the front end—to know yourself—when you're coming at it kind of through a side door or, you know, later in your life, and you've already got this whole life constructed, then what if those pieces that you uncover that are really essential parts of yourself—what if they don't really fit in this thing you've built?
CA: Yeah.
S: That's scary—
CA: Really scary!
S: —for women to consider once their life is already pretty well developed, you know, and humming along. The idea of the caged animal sitting inside the cage with the door open feels deeply true to me. I can see how that really would be applicable to a lot of women in this situation when they're confronted with some of these things.
CA: And I do—it's almost like that's where I feel like my role as a therapist is, to coax them out just a little bit. Like just come out for a minute and then you can go back in where it safe, but let's just look around. Let's just, let's take a step out and see, you know, what you might see if you didn't have those bars all around you. And acknowledging that it is scary and that there's going to be a lot of feelings and emotions and sometimes, eventually regret. I see a lot of women that have lived most of their lives, you know, in the cage or in this place where they didn't know themselves. And then they figure some things out and they're like, "Oh my gosh!" And you just have to say, "It's okay. This is part of our journey here, is that we are learning and growing and now we know things we didn't, and now you can do things differently." That's hard though.
S: Really hard.
CA: Yeah.
S: Really hard. Who wants to walk willingly into regret?
C: Oh, gosh.
S: Nobody, even though it's a part of life! I mean, it really is just a part of life. We're all going to have things that we regret, but it's pretty scary to just go through that door.
C: And I'm sure what makes it difficult is, some women could really resist what you're saying, 'cause there may be like some cognitive dissonance. Like what you're saying sounds true, and yet our church is saying something else and they've got to make this decision. And there's this big gaping hole between what they're starting to realize with you, and yet what they want to be in the church, because that's safe and comfortable.
CA: No, it's so difficult and it's so—you have to allow them to explore it and make their own choices. You know, just kind of like I see myself as joining them on their journey for a little while and saying, "How about this?" And, "Look at this!" But ultimately their life, their choices. And I do see women who kind of—the light bulb goes on and they start to see things, and then fear takes over and they run back in the cage. Because it's what they know. And I know that, and I don't judge that at all because I know how hard and and how painful it is to make changes. Really tough, tough changes, because sometimes it really means reorganizing your life in a very deep way. Because sometimes it means ending relationships or, you know, making really big changes that are really, really difficult.
C: Right. Closing that picket fence gate, right? And not letting, maybe, some people in anymore. So, can we go ahead then and talk about those moments where the gate is closed or open? How do we set healthy boundaries?
CA: Well, I think most of all, you know—I feel like in some ways I'm being redundant, but maybe it just bears saying over and over again: I think boundaries start with self. And so knowing you are your own separate self, and that you deserve to have wants and needs, and that you're the master of your own fate, so to speak. Because I do think some of the unhealthy boundaries are things that we do to ourselves. Oftentimes there are things that other people or institutions or whatever thrust on us, but I think over time, some of it is, you know, we make ourselves a victim, or we become passive aggressive because that's the way we get some power back, or—
C: Wow.
CA: So I think it's doing that whole self reflection and really trying to understand self, and knowing that we have worth as an individual. It doesn't matter if we're male or female, we have the same amount of worth. And I really believe we have the same amount of worth in the eyes of God. And then we have to know ourselves and then we have to ask those questions at the beginning. Am I doing this? What are my needs and wants? Am I expressing my emotions? Am I being vulnerable? Am I really looking carefully at the people in my life and letting those in that are safe and are going to care for this self that I'm carefully working on and taking care of?
Sometimes I have, in the past, given a seminar about self esteem and that kind of ties in because I think when we care for ourselves and we set boundaries, that's a way we develop self-esteem, and I often bring a little three legged stool. And I say, "You know, this is a good way to look at your life. If you think of your life as a three-legged stool, where one of the legs is God and the other leg is yourself and the other one is others, we need all of those to be equal in strength." And so we need to work on our relationship with God, and love Him. We need to love ourselves—the whole first and great commandment is to love our neighbor as ourselves, which indicates that we need to love ourselves. And only when we have that really figured out, can we truly love others.
So I think finding that balance and making those things equal and strong is a good way to then be able to say, okay, I'm in a good place now, what are these boundaries that I need to set in my life so that I can have a good fulfilling life and have meaning.
You know, for myself individually, not just for all these other people that I take care of. And I think Christ is a perfect example of that for us. He, when he had had enough of being around people, he withdrew! He withdrew for 40 days and nights to be alone to fill his cup. I mean, what better example do we have than that?
I mean, you know, what mother has that luxury, or what woman for that matter has that luxury, but just that example and trying to follow that in knowing that that's important for every individual man and woman. To take time, to care for self and to, you know, fill your own cup. And that is also going to allow you then to come back and be with people and set appropriate boundaries, make good choices. We just need to learn how to do them in a healthy way. And boundaries really, really help us to do that.
CA: So I think it's even important to note that single women, which are abundant in our church, and I think—
C: The majority.
CA: —a majority now—and oftentimes feel even more marginalized than married women do, because at least they kind of have some of those checklists that we're supposed to have. They don't, even though they've had this time by themselves, they don't escape these church teachings. Because also they're not doing what the ideal is, the thing that they'd been taught to do, but also because even though they may have the time and space to develop self, so much of that energy is directed not to owning self, but to pursuing that ultimate goal that they've been taught from childhood. They're supposed to be a wife. They're supposed to be a mother. That is their purpose on earth, and that they can't reach the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom without somebody choosing them. Or as one of my single clients said, that really was just like a knife to my heart, "I can't be exalted because no one wants to have sex with me. How fair is that?" I— that was just like—nobody had ever put it that way to me before. And I've heard a lot in my work, but that was just like, I haven't been chosen. And so therefore I am less worthy. And to me that's super important when we're talking about self, because if we all felt that way, if everyone was an equal individual—men, women, single women, single men—nobody would have to be a second class citizen.
S: Right.
CA: Because marital status and children would not define who we are. Who we are would be who the self is.
C: That's what I'm hoping though, now that that statistic is out there that we have more single people in the church than married people, is I think, "Okay then!" And we've said this—I hope that our lessons start being geared more towards individuals. I am a person. I am showing up. Yes, I am married and yes, I have children, but I'm an individual and I want skills and tools and inspiration for my life separate from all these other roles. So I have hope that now that statistic is out there, that we will start talking about gospel principles, more geared towards individuals. And, dare I say, less towards families.
CA: Yeah.
S: It requires a pretty big paradigm shift though, for that to happen at this point.
C: Huge!
S: Yeah. We have a long way to go to get from A to B on that. But I also am hopeful that it will happen. I mean, Cynthia and I, to be honest, we were kind of reeling a little bit when it occurred to us that we actually are not the majority. That married women, like us, are not the majority in the Church. And so then, the next place my head went was well then, are single women the majority? And yes, obviously they must be if the majority of members are single and we know there are more women than men in the church.
CA: Right, right.
S: That makes single women the majority. How on earth can they be living under this kind of paradigm that would, uh, as, as your client put it so well—lack of exaltation because no one wanted to have sex with them, basically. That's what she said. And that really hurts because...she just said it.
C: She just said it.
CA: Yeah. I see a lot of single women in my practice and a lot of them say, "I'm sure you've never done this because you're married and have children, but if you will just sit there, just for one Sunday, and count the number of times it's mentioned about families and marriage, you will be astounded." And so I did it for awhile, and it's true! It permeates everything that goes on.
C: All right. We have just a few minutes left, C.A., and we've—I've had a couple experiences lately that I thought, "Okay, I'm just going to run these by C.A. when we're speaking with her." Kind of an action plan, and what would you say in these scenarios? And something that we hear a lot from women is, how do they handle the judgment from family members? Like, what are the words that they should say? And in particular, we had one listener contact us recently—but she asked us, you know, "What do I say to family members who can see that I'm not wearing my garments, or that I don't always wear them? Or my family members can tell?" And they're saying things to her, and what should she say?
CA: Yeah. And it's funny, 'cause I thought of a lot of different responses to this. Some of them a little bit snarky, like. "It's none of your business. It's none of your business, what I wear!" But I guess, in keeping with what we've been talking about on this podcast, I think I would say set the boundaries. I would say be kind, but brave in expressing what your needs and wants are. If someone's judging you because of what you're wearing, tell them politely that it is between you and God. If someone's judging you because you're not attending church or temple or activities or ministering or whatever, tell them kindly, but firmly, it is between you and God.
You could also throw in a little scripture, like "Judge not, that ye be not judged," or that one about the mote in your eye. Anyway, you get my point. I think that that is a really hard thing for us to respond to because—we, you know, the shame and blame is something that kind of makes us cower instead of standing up for ourselves and being able to say, "My choices are my choices." And that this doesn't have anything to do with you, even if it's a family member, even if it's a mother.
C: Yeah. But why is that so scary for a grown woman to say to her mother, "That's between me and God?"
CA: Well, I think it's what we've been talking about this whole podcast is that we don't—we haven't been empowered to have a voice to stand up for our self and say those things, because they've clearly crossed our boundary.
C: Okay, okay. It's coming full circle for me now! I get it! Like, if they have a sense of self, then they feel like they can speak up in that moment. That makes a lot of sense.
CA: Yeah.
C: I had one other instance. I recently spent some time with a friend who lives in a small town and she told me that she's gone, over the years, from being Young Women's president, hopping straight over to Primary president, hopping straight over to Relief Society president. And she is so worn out. But—and this is a problem I can't really quite conceive of because I'm in a ward that has like 500 people—but we do get letters like this a lot from women who are in branches or in small wards, all around the world. And yet they're really burnt out. So what do they do if— Someone has to fill these callings, but what do they do?
CA: Yeah, but I think—I think there's this kind of mistaken thing that, "If I don't do it, nobody else will." And sometimes that's true, but often it just means that people lay low and they don't rise to the occasion. I mean, I think all of us have probably been in wards where they've called someone who wasn't that same 10 people that get called to every single calling, right? And people are like, "Oh, that's interesting!" But it's good because it's change, and it's a new, and maybe they don't do it perfectly, but that's okay. It goes on. And so I think sometimes we get in this mindset that, "If I don't do it, nobody else will. And if nobody else will, everything's going to fall apart. The world's going to come crashing down if there's nobody to fulfill this position." But the truth is that if you moved away, they'd have to cope. If you were terminally ill and couldn't show up, they would have to cope. So there's ways to cope and actually, really standing up for yourself and asking for what you need means that later on, you're going to be able to serve again, because you're going to have some time to replenish and to do the things that you need to do. And so it's actually not a loss in the long run, but I think it's the ability to stand up for what is needful, and that you deserve that. And that matters as much as having someone in that spot.
C: That's great.
S: We need to have this talk in General Conference, because I feel like it's all very well and good for some women to be moving this direction. But until everyone sort of has their eyes opened to these things—I mean, it's kind of rocky going for women who are trying to put some of these ideas in place in their own lives—it's going to be a bumpy ride for a little bit.
C: Well, General Conference sounds good, Susan, but like I said, I'm aiming low! Like, I just want this taught in Relief Society in my own little ward, one time! I'll start there!
CA: And you can't even make that happen!
C: Unh uh, no power!
S: I'm kind of stunned by this conversation, because these are hard sayings C.A.
CA: Yeah.
S: I mean that in the best possible way, but these are hard sayings for us as Latter-day Saints. These go straight to the heart of a lot of things about our culture, and the expectations that are placed on us. About the ways that our relationships are formed. This is very fundamental stuff!
CA: It is, it is really difficult, and difficult to wrap your head around and difficult to say. And I think one of the reasons that I feel like I have the ability to speak to some of these is because I can put on my other hat as a professional and say, "If I'm looking at this from a psychologically healthy standpoint, what would I say?"
C: Yeah.
CA: Sometimes that's hard because I don't know that everyone wants to hear that.
S: Well, because now that I—you know, when I see some of these things, I can't un-see it. I just go back to how I felt when you were reading that list at the beginning and I said I needed to lie down after. I—it's just stark in my vision, and I can't, I don't know how to, un-see it. But that leaves me in a very uneasy place. A better place than I was in before, a better place. A hopeful place, because, if you can't see a problem, you can't do anything to improve it. But, uh, we have work to do.
CA: And interestingly enough, those lists that I compiled—those didn't have anything to do with church. Those were just different places—
Susan: Right!
C: Aha!
CA: —where I looked at personal boundaries: What are healthy? What are unhealthy? Just from a clinical psychologist's viewpoint.
C: Wow.
S: Right.
CA: And that's interesting because I had the same thing as you did when I read through them. And I think maybe I even said this to you when we were preparing for this. It's like, "Oh my, these are really tough when you start to put them into the context of the Church."
S: Yeah.
C: Oh, now you're really blowing my mind. 'Cause I thought that was your own list, observing our church culture.
CA: No.
C: That makes it worse!
S: We need six more episodes on this.
C: Yes, yes we do. We need six more. Um, CA this has been so wonderful. We're so glad that you were able to come back on again and share your wisdom with us. And, before we close, do you have any final thoughts you'd like to share with our listeners?
CA: Yes. I just kind of want to circle back to the beginning. Because I always want to leave something to think about. Setting boundaries is a way for caring for self. It doesn't make me mean, selfish or uncaring. They keep me safe. They allow me to fully become an autonomous and separate individual human being, and to fulfill my potential. Men have permission to do this, but we often do not. When I take care of myself and set boundaries, I feel good. And I find peace and contentment, and everyone wins.
S: Wow.
C: Peace.
S: Imagine that!
C: Yeah. Imagine that, having more peace. Thank you, C.A.
S: This has been an amazing conversation. Thank you.
CA: You're so welcome. I enjoyed it so much.