Episode 267 (Transcript): What Do You Say? | 3 Conversations About Holy Envy, Uncertainty, and Forgiving Yourself
Episode Transcript
Many thanks to listener Rebecca Graham for her work in transcribing this episode!
This episode can be found on any podcast app or can be listened to here on our website as well. All the notes and resources we cited in the episode are found at this link as well:
Anne Pimentel: I think that when people have an expansive faith experience, to the outside, to the maybe orthodox member, it looks like they’re falling away.
CW: Yeah.
AP: And people may think that about me right now as I’m expanding and changing how I approach church, but what they may not understand is that I have never felt closer to God than I do right now, and my relationship is deeper and more enriching than it ever has been.
And so we have this fear of changing how we do church, but I think that when you really dig deep into it, it is such a beautiful deepening experience.
_____
CW: Hi, I’m Cynthia Winward.
SH: And I’m Susan Hinkley.
CW: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things, and the title of today’s episode is “What Do You Say? Three Conversations About Holy Envy, Uncertainty, and Forgiving Yourself.” Hello, Susan.
SH: Hello, Cynthia. I’m looking forward to these conversations today, but can I take a second for housekeeping before we start?
CW: Please.
SH: I wanted to let listeners know that this is our second to last episode of our regular season episodes for Season 11. We’ll have one more next week, and then we’re going on summer vacation, Cynthia.
CW: Summer vacation.
SH: But there will be more ... We haven’t finished with all of our “What Do You Say?” interviews yet, and so there will be some “What Do You Say?” dessert over the summer, and-
CW: Nice
SH: And that will show up in the form of a bonus episode. And then we will have a few other bonuses, and we hope that people will hang with us for the bonuses and come back with us when we resume in early fall, I guess. Late summer, early fall.
CW: Mhmm!
SH: Yeah. Not gonna pin any dates down on that yet. I also wanted to thank the listeners. We … People may have noticed we’ve had a little bit of a mini pledge drive going on here. And I wanted to thank people for their generosity in all the ways that they have supported the podcast, but particularly at this time, financially. We have appreciated that, and so thank you to everyone who has donated, who has helped us out with a paid subscription on Substack.
And I just wanna give people a reminder that even if we stop talking about that, you can keep thinking about it.
CW: [laughing]
SH: And we’re happy to have your support any time that you can afford to kick a dollar our way. And also a reminder that we are a 501[c][3], and so if people will hit the donate button on our website to make a donation, those are tax-deductible. A paid subscription to our Substack actually is not tax-deductible, so that’s something else people may wanna consider when they’re figuring out the best way to support the podcast.
CW: Nice! Good housekeeping. Alright. Are we ready?
SH: Yeah, let’s get to the good stuff.
CW: All right. Let’s get to our three conversations, and then I’ll meet you back here for Contemplation Corner. How’s that?
SH: Perfect.
_____
SH: Oh, Cynthia, here’s one we’ve been looking forward to. We’ve got Jen Dilley with us to play today. Hi, Jen.
CW: Yay.
JD: Hey, Susan and Cynthia. I’m so excited for this. Woo-woo!
SH: We’re gonna start out with a question from our memories category. Would you like question one, two, or three?
JD: Let’s go two.
SH: Was there a big churchy question you were obsessed with as a kid, and who, if anyone, did you feel free to ask about it?
JD: Okay. I would say my answer to a big churchy question was probably closer to a big churchy topic, which was the temple. And I loved it when I was growing up because it was the temple and not kind of how we talk about it now as, like, the covenant path.
CW: Oh.
JD: So I still remember it, like, where I was sitting in the primary room when we learned the song “I Love to See the Temple.” And I just had such warm, fuzzy feelings in my heart and just kept thinking, like, “Man, how can I get there?” And I feel like my young women’s leaders did such a good job of really emphasizing, “you really need to get married in the temple.” And looking back, I realize, like, it did feel like they kind of drummed it into our head for how important it was.
CW: Mhmm.
JD: But it felt okay. You know, it didn’t feel like “covenant path” nowadays where it’s, like, the only thing we could talk about it. They talked about it in, like, fun and creative ways, and they also talked about, like, how can you prepare for the temple as a really exciting thing.
And so I do remember feeling like right before I was gonna go to the temple, I just wanted to read all the scriptures, go to the temple, and then read all the scriptures again and see how I could relate to the scriptures differently because I’d been to the temple.
CW: Ahh.
JD: And so I do remember, like, going through the temple and being like, [00:05:00] huh, okay, yeah, that wasn’t really what I thought
CW: Right?
JD: [laughing] As like, probably all of us did. But I really appreciated that I could talk to my dad about it. And I remember talking to my mom about it as well, but my dad was probably like my primary go-to person because my dad was a convert and,like, he joined the church when he was 19, and so he had really studied it out, whereas my mom was a lifelong member.
And so she was just kinda like, “Yeah, it’s so special, it’s so great,” whereas my dad would be like, “The history of the temple came from the Old Testament” and would kind of go through it with me. So yeah, just how to prepare for the temple. It was a big, big focus in a very happy way.
SH: And did you feel like you were well-prepared? Like, did you get adequate preparation,
JD: [laughing] Not at all.
SH: Okay. [laughing] Say more.
JD: I do remember going to temple prep and just smiling and nodding and being like, “Okay, but when are we really gonna talk about like-
CW: Yes
JD: ... what the temple is-
CW: Right
JD: ... and what we do? It was all these like, you know, I can still remember the Boyd K. Packer little pamphlet, “The Holy Temple.”And reading it through and just being like, “Okay, where’s the page when they’re actually gonna, like, talk about what we do?”
CW: The ceremony.
JD: The ceremony and what I promise. And so when our kids were getting ready to go to the temple, like, we sat them down and were like, “After you walk through the door, then you’re gonna go here, and then you’re gonna do this.” And we told them, like, step by step, and they were so funny. They were “yeah, okay, whatever. It’s gonna be fine.” And I was like-
CW: Nice
JD: ... “No, I want you to know…so I want you to know”
SH: [laughing]
JD: ... like every step of what you’re doing.
CW: Yes.
JD: And what you’re promising
SH: Oh, amazing actually. Nobody did that with me, Jen
CW: Uh-huh.
JD: I know. I know. It was a different time, you know? Like, I’m not saying we’re old, Susan, but for us, you know, like, temple prep was just like, “Yeah, read the Boyd K. Packer pamphlet and come with questions.”
SH: That’s what it was.
JD: That’s what it was, right? And we can’t talk about anything.
SH: Right.
JD: But it’s not secret, it’s sacred, and-
SH: And also secret.
[all laughing]
JD: Yeah.
CW: Oh my gosh, I wanna have a whole episode about the temple with Jen, but we will move on.
JD: K.
CW: We will move on. Okay, from insights, would you like one, two, or three?
JD: Let’s go with three.
CW: I love this question so much. What gives you holy envy?
JD: Ah, so many things. Lately, I’ve been seeing that Pope Leo has been making social media posts, and just media in general, about how he’s praying for peace and not war. And I feel like that is such a brave thing to do right now, and he’s definitely taking heat for that, because there is a certain segment of Christianity that’s like, “What are you talking about?” Like- “This is fine. We just follow our president.”
CW: Mhmm.
JD: And I’m really grateful for the leadership of Pope Leo to say, “I feel like I’m speaking God’s message with this,” and it feels like he’s being very prophetic. I also appreciate that-
CW: Yes
JD: ... the Episcopal bishops also made a video, I think it’s been a few weeks now just saying-
CW: I saw that
JD: Yeah, just saying, “Hey we’re concerned about what’s going on in our country.” And I loved that they stated like, “Here’s our values. Here’s why we’re concerned.” And they were values that I feel like everyone can rally around. So I think in this moment, I’m really craving church leaders who will speak up and say what Jesus actually said and-
CW: Mm. hm hm hm.
JD: ... And use it for good. And a little sub-theme to that, I also have holy envy for people observing Lent because as, when we’re recording this, you know, people are in Lent, and I feel like our church is kind of in that baby stage of trying to figure out what to do around Easter.
SH: Right, right.
JD: Where, you know, we’re talking about it more, it’s so great, and they’re saying, “You should do some stuff.” And I’m kinda like, “What should I do? Do I observe Lent? Do I give something up for Lent? I don’t really understand it. Where should I look to find out more?”
CW: Yeah
JD: ... so, yeah. Trying to learn more about how to observe Easter and these traditional Christian holidays that really are part of our heritage as Christians.
CW: Okay, I really love, Jen, that you used the word craving when you were talking about this holy envy that you have for other clergy of, you know, Pope Leo and Episcopal leaders, because as you were talking, I was thinking to myself, “Yes, please, I will take two helpings of that on my plate.”
JD: [laughing]
CW: So apparently I [00:10:00] am craving that as well. So everything you said ditto. I’m craving that so much-
JD: Awesome ...
SH: What you didn’t say is why you might be craving that.
CW: Ooh, that’s a dangerous follow-up, Susan.
[all laughing]
JD: Do you want me to spell that out?
CW: Are you insinuating she’s lacking something in Mormonism?
SH: I’m just saying this is “At Last She Said It,” and I wanna hear the quiet part out loud right now.
[everyone continues to laugh]
JD: Alright. Alright. I will say it. Our church has been very silent, and it is breaking my heart because I do feel like with what’s happening, there is a moral issue of what’s going wrong. And I understand that it’s very difficult for church leaders. I feel like during COVID they found out what it’s like to take a stand on a political issue.
SH: Right.
JD: You know, when they said, “Hey, wear masks, get vaccinated,” and they got a lot of pushback for that. And so I understand it feels tricky, and I feel like we are in a situation where this is no longer just party politics. Like, this is a moral issue when we’re seeing, like, the rule of law and democracy- being openly violated. This is a problem that has moral implications, and it’s not just, like, what’s the letter behind the people’s name who you vote for. It’s a lot bigger than that.
CW: I said to Susan recently, because everything you’re talking about, Jen, I’m like, “This is the Jesus work, and shouldn’t we always be taking a stand on the Jesus work?” And so I said to Susan, “Whose name is on our building? It’s Jesus’ name, not Joseph Smith’s.” Because all I feel like I hear is people leaning on Joseph Smith, on The Articles of Faith, right? We believe in obeying the laws, blah, blah, blah. And I’m like, “Okay, that’s all great and good, but his name isn’t on our building. It’s Jesus’.” So I feel like that should take precedence over the laws, but what do I know?
JD: Yeah. Well, I’ll tell you, I just read a book about Bonhoeffer, who was a pastor in Germany in the 1930s.
SH: Right.
JD: Yeah, you’re familiar with him. And he got really frustrated that churches were just falling in line with their leadership, and he felt to speak out, and he paid for it with his life. And I read that book to see what the similarities are between then and now. And there are some really disturbing similarities-
CW: Mhmm.
JD: ... of church leaders right now just falling in line behind some really immoral action and it’s very sobering, so. And I was speaking with someone who I’m very close with, and I said, “Are you disappointed that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has not taken a stand and come out publicly and made a statement?” And they said, “Well, in order to be disappointed, I would have to have expectations that they would.” And I said, “Do you really wanna be in a church where you have zero expectations-
SH: Ah
JD: ... of them taking a moral stand?”
SH: Right.
CW: Fair question
JD: And that got them thinking.
CW: Wow. Ooh, okay. Interesting.
SH: Now, aren’t you glad I asked that risky follow-up, Cynthia? [laughing]
CW: Yes. Oh, 100%. I had to. You can edit all that out. I think of that as well.
SH: I knew she would not disappoint us. Okay. Would you like-- We are in beliefs now. Would you like question one, two, or three?
JD: Okay, let’s go one.
SH: Was there a bedrock truth in your life that you found out wasn’t true?
JD: Yes. The bedrock truth that I found wasn’t true is, I grew up hearing that Heavenly Mother was too sacred to talk about. And when I found out that came from an institute teacher in California-
CW: Right. Right
JD:... and that wasn’t anything that the brethren ever said-
SH: Right.
JD: I just, that was a rage-y day, just feeling like, “Well, wait, if that’s not true, then why aren’t we talking about her more?” And- ... why can’t we platform her, and what- what’s the risk of having her featured and highlighted more?
CW: Mhmm.
SH: Love that answer. And, like, how did these things used to spread? This is what I wanna know.
CW: Before the internet, you mean? [laughing]
SH: I guess. We’re talking, there’s no internet, so some rando institute teacher comes up with this, and then suddenly it takes over all of the conversation for the next however many decades. Well, it means that people were ready and willing to pick that up and run with it.
JD: Yeah, I think you’re exactly right, is, we’re all kind of looking for an explanation of, like- ... how can my brain make sense of this?
SH: Right.
JD: And yeah, but the problem is it plays into this docile view of a little timid woman in the corner.
CW: Ugh.
JD: Like, and I’m sorry, that is not Heavenly Mother. [00:15:00]
SH: It has not served us well. That’s absolutely true, in- on any level that I can think of, you know?
CW: I always find it fascinating when people say, “Well, we don’t talk about Heavenly Mother ‘cause we don’t know anything about her.” And I’m like, “Well, let’s be honest. What do we know about God, the Eternal Father? Zero.”
SH: Right.
CW: Like, the only thing we know, I mean, the scriptures say if... I think Jesus says, you know, “If you know me, you know the Father.” And so I’m like, “Okay, that’s literally all we know then, so wouldn’t the same be true if you know Jesus, you know the Mother?”
JD: Right. Exactly.
CW: That’s just my question.
JD: Exactly. And I’ve heard that another reason given is like, “Oh, well, if you look at the Lord’s Prayer, it starts out, ‘Our Father...’ “ And then, you know, continues on. And I recently learned from a Christian historian, they said rabbis would give their parishioners prayers as kind of a template to kind of get them going.
Like, “Hey, here’s a little something-
CW: Mm
JD: ... that you can recite, and this kind of gets you going down the path of prayer.” And so it was very common for rabbis to be sharing just a simple templated prayer to their parishioners. But then they were saying that doesn’t mean that every single prayer after that had to be only that prayer based on that prayer, that prayer-
SH: Right
JD: That prayer template was perfect. And so I just think could we maybe, like, open our minds a little bit on this topic?
CW: Could we open our minds a little? Yes.
JD: Yeah.
CW: Yes.
JD: And if we don’t know, how about we, we could ask for further light and knowledge. Oh, well
CW: Now we’re talking crazy. And a church that has prophetic revelation as its backbone, one would think, right?
SH: Okay. But also in a church that has polygamy as, I mean, maybe not its backbone, but one of its foundational bones
CW: Ohhh Susan
SH: ... do not ask questions to which you do not wanna know the answer. Right?
CW: Ouch.
SH: Ouch. Sorry, had to wreck it.
CW: It’s good that you did.
SH: Oh, so much fun. Thank you, Jen.
JD: Yes.Thank you both.
_____
CW: Alright. Well, we’re excited to have Jessie Santamaria Whittaker here with us. Best name ever.
SH: Hello, Jessie.
JSW: Thank you. It’s nice to be here.
CW: Ah, you play such an important role in our Substack chat, so we are so glad that we get to talk to you. So I am going to start out with the memories category, and you get to choose one, two, or three.
JSW: I’m probably gonna choose two every time ‘cause that’s my favorite number.
CW: Okay. Let’s just do it. Okay. Your question is: What’s the biggest sacrifice you’ve ever made?
JSW: I don’t- I’m not sure how to answer this one, to be honest. Are we thinking sacrifice in a good way or sacrifice in a bad way? [laughing]
CW: You decide.
SH: We’re not thinking at all. Only you think. [laughing]
CW: Yeah ... I don’t wanna put a label on it. You decide.
JSW: When I hear the word sacrifice, I do tend to think of a negative connotation.
CW: I can see that, yeah.
JSW: I think for a lot, yeah, for a lot of years, I sacrificed just myself, like who I am and honestly, the person I think God wants me to be because I was so concerned with being who everyone else said God wanted me to be.
CW: Mm.
JSW: Yeah. It’s really been, like, probably since COVID that I have really been like, no, I deserve to be myself and to feel joy and contentment and live authentically and wholeheartedly and do what I feel is right.
SH: Do you feel like this is, like, a natural progression as you’ve gotten older? Or have, you know, life circumstances shifted to help you come to this? Or, do you have any insight on why that’s changing for you?
JSW: Well, church has always been really, really hard for me. When I was very young, I had an experience where I realized that there was evil in the world. And that the evil was not this arbitrary, like, random, can’t see Satan, right? Like-
SH: Oh ...
JSW: ...that the evil was inflicted by other people. Like, I’ve always just felt very sensitive to other people’s pain, to their suffering. Because I was so consumed with trying to be who other people wanted me to be, I ended up in a lot of situations that weren’t healthy for myself. And- and so it just, like, came to a point where I finally was like, “This can’t be what endure to the end means.”
CW: Wow.
JSW: This can’t, like, this can’t be what God [00:20:00] wants for me. Like, my whole life I’ve heard, “God loves you. You have divine nature and individual worth,” and all of this stuff, but I came to this point where I was like, “I can’t even look in the mirror and say I love myself.” And that was a really scary and hard realization for me, because I was like, “If I can’t love myself, how am I supposed to love the people around me?”
CW: That’s insightful. Yeah.
JSW: Yeah, that was ... I think that was probably the breaking point where I, yeah, I just, I had to choose myself.
CW: That’s a hard-fought lesson, Jessi. Thank you for sharing that. Alright.
SH: All right. Insights. And just so you know, these are totally random. Do you still want number two?
JSW: Sure do.
CW: [laughing]
SH: Okay, here it comes. Is there anything you feel like you’re constantly chasing as an LDS woman?
JSW: So it probably was in November, December of this last year. I had, like, an ugly cry breakdown in my boys’ room. I was racked with grief because I had this realization working as a therapist that, like, at least in this lifetime, there is no, “I am fixed. I am healed.” And I don’t necessarily believe that I will ever reach that point, even if the eternities are real. And so, like, my whole life, I’ve been chasing this peace that I’ve been promised.
CW: Mm.
JSW: And this, like, Jesus can fix it. He can heal you. Everything is gonna be okay, and I don’t know that’s true anymore. Because even though I’m in a place where I understand myself better, I know how to manage my emotions and my thoughts and my beliefs better than ever before, I still struggle with everything I’ve always struggled with.
CW: You’re still you.
JSW: Yeah, just this idea that, like, like, why am I chasing...Well, and I think, too, the other part that goes with it is, I was chasing the idea of peace that has been taught, right?
CW: Yes.
JSW: And I had to recognize that peace actually looks and feels different than I thought it did.
SH: Mm.
CW: Nice.
SH: So maybe, I could be totally drawing the wrong conclusion here, but maybe you already had something, or you could access something that you didn’t realize was peace?
JSW: Yeah. For me, I actually find a great deal of peace and comfort in uncertainty. Which is, like, wild, because me a year ago saying that, I would’ve been like, “You are crazy.” Like, “There’s no way,” especially having OCD as, like, the”what if disease” is what I call it.
SH: Right.
JSW: It’s- doubt consumes me. And I’ve been running away from that for a long time, and when I finally stopped running from it and I turned around and I decided I was gonna embrace it, it was like, oh, life is still hard, but this actually feels manageable.
CW: Wow. That’s pretty amazing, Jessi. I think to go from, as your label, the “what if disease,” I like that, to accepting uncertainty. I mean, I’m sure it rears its ugly head still here and there, right? Because you’re still you.
JSW: Yep. 100%.
CW: But to have maybe the tools to probably work through that, that’s kind of big.
JSW: Yeah. It really has been life-changing.
CW: Wow.
SH: I’m also trying to imagine a church experience in which uncertainty can be peace. I’m pretty sure you’ve never had that lesson at church.
JSW: No, never.
SH: [laughing] I don’t think church gave that to you.
JSW: Not even once.
CW: Don’t hold your breath. [laughing]
SH: No, not gonna happen. But that’s, I love the way that you described that. My mom also, by the way, has always called it “the what ifs,” so.
CW: Really? Yeah.
SH: It’s a very apt description, in my experience.
CW: Yeah.
SH: Love it.
CW: All right, well let’s get another three cards. These are in beliefs, Jessi, so-
JSW: Okay.
CW: Susan’s favorite category.
SH: Okay. It’s not my favorite category.
CW: I know, I’m teasing you.
SH: You don’t have to answer it.
CW: You don’t have to answer it, so it’s your favorite now.
SH: Nope. [laughing]
CW: Okay, Miss Jessie, has your idea of what it means to be a good person changed?
JSW: I don’t know that it’s changed really. I think for a long time I thought that my idea of a good person was wrong because that’s not what other people said a good person was. But, like, if I really look back on my life and I really think about, this is what I see as a good person, and these are the people that stand out to me as Christ-like and truly living the gospel how I understand it- I think I’ve always known deep down what a good person is and how they show up in life. So I don’t necessarily think that how I see it has changed. I think I [00:25:00] just stopped telling myself that how I saw it was wrong.
CW: Mm. So maybe it was uncover...if it hasn’t really changed, then maybe you just
JSW: I actually like that you said uncovered, or you were going to say uncovered.
CW: Yeah.
JSW: I recently had this thought about bearing a testimony, right? And bear as in B-E-A-R. Like, that’s what we’re taught to do. We’re taught to bear it, and it’s like this image of strength and standing up. And then I thought, “What if I bared my testimony- ... as in B-A-R-E?”
SH: Right.
JSW: Instead of the other.
CW: Mm.
JSW: What if I uncovered it and I showed people how simple it could be and-
CW: Wow
JSW: ... how we don’t have to have the knowledge, the “I know” or the certainty or the whatever it is that’s put out there. Like, what if I bared it and I uncovered it and I let people see who I am? And I think that’s really been part of my journey is the uncovering and the, I’m not gonna hide anymore.
SH: And how’s that going for you? I mean, I say that in a kind of flip way, but I actually, like, mean it. Like, really... How’s that been?
JSW: I think it’s been good. Like I said, life isn’t magically easier now that I am living this way, but somehow I have found the people that I needed to find. I have found community. I have changed my core beliefs towards myself and recognize that I do have value, and that maybe there is, even if it’s only one person that I can help touch with my story or the things that I’ve learned or whatever I’ve been through, that will have been enough. Because even when I thought God had abandoned me and that I wasn’t worth it, like, I was always trying to do the next right thing, you know?
SH: Right.
JSW: And now I can look back and go, “You know, I don’t actually think God ever abandoned me. I think God was witnessing where I was and giving me-
CW: Wow
JSW: ... the space I needed to make my next decision.”
CW: That sounds so incredibly beautiful to go from a feeling of abandonment to God was witnessing.
Okay, Susan, I knew this was gonna be the problem doing these kinds of episodes because-
SH: I know, that is a really beautiful image.
CW: Well, I know, but I feel like we can’t- I’m gonna be thinking about it. We can’t leave this at a 15-minute interview.
SH: Right?
CW: And yet we’re going to have to, because now I wanna talk to Jessie for a full hour about that concept. Maybe we will another time.
SH: Cynthia, this whole thing is just, like, a thinly disguised way for us to find new podcast guests. Don’t know if you figured that out yet. Duh.
CW: Maybe [laughing]
CW: Oh my gosh. That’s a lot of... that’s hard. Again, that’s hard-fought wisdom, isn’t it?
JSW: Yeah.
CW: I bet.
SH: Yeah.
JSW: It’s... There’s been a lot of wrestling. Like, true wrestling and yet I wouldn’t change any of it despite the challenges, and, you know, the tears, and the hardships, and I wouldn’t change any of it. Because I truly believe it allows me to approach life and my career the way that I do. And witnessing when people need to be witnessed.
SH: Yeah. Those are some beautiful answers. Cynthia and I are gonna be talking about that after we hang up.
CW: Yeah.
SH: Thank you so much, Jessie.
JSW: Yeah. Of course. Thank you. I appreciate it so much.
_____
CW: Okay, we have Anne Pimentel with us. Welcome, Anne.
SH: Hi, Anne.
AP: Hi, thanks for having me.
CW: Ooh, we’re so glad to get to know you a little bit better. Okay, from our memories category, would you like one, two, or three?
AP: Let’s go with number one.
CW: What’s been your favorite decade of your life so far, and why?
AP: Oh, dear. I would have to say this decade that I am in right now.
CW: Mmm!
AP: And that is actually hard for me to say because I do feel like I am having a lot of ouchy moments right now and growing a lot and struggling with things. But the growth that I have had in this decade of life is above anything I’ve ever done before. And I feel like I’m more authentically me and more understanding of who I am and what I’m meant to do and how I’m supposed to move through this world [00:30:00] right now. And so I just feel so much more sure of myself than I ever have.
CW: Well, then I’m glad we asked the question the way we did, was “what’s been your favorite decade,” not easiest or [laughing]
AP: Yeah ...
CW: cause it doesn’t sound like-
AP: It’s definitely not this one if it was easiest.
CW: This one hasn’t been the cakewalk, huh?
AP: No. No, but that’s where the growth happens, and so that’s a good thing.
CW: Yeah. Dang it.
SH: Well, that’s really interesting to me that you’d say that because I don’t know if I... I don’t know where I wrote about it or talked about it. It might be in our book, but I talked about my 50s being my favorite decade. I think it was. I think it was in our book. Even though all of these really difficult and awful things happened in my 50s, if there was a decade I’d go back and do again, that’s really the only one I can think of that I would.
CW: Hm.
SH: And so I’ve thought a lot about why- how my favorite decade could be, like, the hardest- in some ways. The kind of hard that it was, I guess, and it’s because it was grow-y. It’s exactly what you said, so thank you. You just explained that to me. Can I ask just a follow-up?
AP: Yeah.
SH: What’s your least favorite decade of your life? [laughing]
AP: It’s hard because I wouldn’t say that any decade has complete bad aspects to it. You know? Everything has had bits of good and... I mean, I would say, like, as a teenager, I loved my friend aspect of my life. I played volleyball in high school. I had the best girlfriends. We just had a great time, but my relationship with my mom was strained sometimes, and I didn’t really wanna be around my family. And I was, I’m the youngest, and so my sisters had all moved away, and I was just with my parents and that was hard. But I wouldn’t say that decade was bad or my worst. It just was, I don’t know, I just kind of floated through it with a focus on friends... which is a good thing sometimes.
SH: Yeah.
CW: Plus, who wants to relive their teenage years anyway? Even if it was your favorite, as in the easiest, bestest, everything.
SH: You know what? If you’re someone who wants to relive their teenage years, I don’t like that person because it probably means ... they were like the homecoming queen [laughing] or they were like-
CW: Yes
SH: ... who knows what they were doing, but it didn’t resemble my life.
AP: Yeah. That was not my experience.
SH: All right, Anne, let’s talk about insights. Would you like question one, two, or three?
AP: Let’s go three this time.
SH: When have you had to forgive yourself for something?
AP: These are deep questions.
CW: Yes ma’am, they are.
AP: I can think of one big experience where I just did not handle the conversation well, and I went to an extreme emotional response mixed with anger, like sadness and anger mixed together. And I didn’t take what was being said, which was meant to be constructive criticism, and I didn’t take it that way, and I just got super offended and angry. Looking back on that situation, it was with a woman in my ward. I wish that I had just listened more and I didn’t have to take what she was saying because I don’t agree with what she was saying.
I didn’t have to take what she was saying personally... but I could have just let her say her piece and then moved on, and instead it turned into this big explosive experience. And so I’ve had to forgive myself for how I’ve interacted with her specifically. But I think that those human interactions get messy quick. They have that possibility. And I wanna do better with that, and so maybe that’s why I feel like I’ve had to forgive myself when I don’t do how I feel I should do.
CW: Okay, I have a follow-up because this sounds oh-so-familiar to myself. So was your overreaction because you felt like you were being misunderstood in that moment? She was characterizing you as A when you’re like, “No, I’m B,” or was it just the facts were wrong and you just needed to set her straight? I don’t know.
AP: A little of both.
CW: Okay.
AP: I feel like she definitely was not understanding where I was coming from, and I thought that we were on the same page in a lot of ways. And so to have her say what she did about me, which was also riddled with lies and kind of falsehoods that she had fabricated-
CW: Oh, yeah
AP: That didn’t feel good.
CW: And so looking back, you wish now you had just, “Okay,” she said her piece, shrug your shoulders, and walk away?
AP: Yeah. I understand now more that people can have their story that they’re telling themselves of a situation.
CW: Ah.
AP: And I didn’t need to carry the weight of what her story was.
SH: Wow.
AP: And so I think that is a skill that I’ve tried to learn, to be able to just have a person tell me what they’re thinking, what they’re feeling and I [00:35:00] can just-- I can hold that they’re thinking that, but I don’t have to have it weigh me down and affect me emotionally in the same way that I used to.
CW: That’s hard stuff, isn’t it? Dang it.
AP: It is. And I mean, I’m not good at it.
SH: But- I was gonna ask actually if you feel like as a result of that experience you got better at something. Did you learn something from it? I mean, you know, that has had an impact?
AP: Well, definitely in the way that I interact with my husband. Like, we will tell each other, “the story I’m telling myself is X.” And, you know, and that’s a good way to kinda diffuse a situation-
SH: Yeah.
AP: ... And not blame somebody. But what I’m telling myself is this, how are you seeing it? What is your story?
SH: Right. Right. I love that. That’s a good tool.
CW: I learned that from Brene Brown as well, and it’s so good, right? Yeah. “The story I’m telling myself” dot dot dot, so.
AP: Yeah. Yeah, I’ve heard her say that.
CW: Awesome. All right. From beliefs, would you like one, two, or three?
AP: Let’s do two.
CW: When do you feel closest to God or the divine?
AP: I am, so we’re all doing the Living School together.
SH: Right.
AP: And it’s a wonderful, expansive understanding of what spirituality is and who God is. And one of the things that I’ve loved is that they say that the Living School is your life. And I feel that that extends to being in God’s presence or feeling God, and that is just my life. I have goodness and godness in me, and everything I do, everything I see, everyone I interact with also is a creation of our heavenly parents. And so I can acknowledge and see and feel God in them. And so I don’t know that I need a specific set-aside time or place to feel God or to-
CW: Right
AP: ... you know, be in communion with God. But I’m working to just have that be a more constant experience or feeling in my life.
SH: Okay, can I ask you a follow-up question?
AP: Yes.
SH: I’m curious to know, I have moved in the same direction myself, so I really resonate with what you’re saying, and I’m curious to know, like, how much is this orientation toward God and toward experiencing God just sort of, part of who you are? Like, did Mor- would Mormonism have gotten you there or did it? Or is this something that represents a pretty big change in how you think about God and how you think about experiencing God and what that means?
AP: Yeah, I think this is a huge change. Like a left turn off the path of what-
SH: Okay
AP: …what I was taught in Mormonism.
CW: Okay.
AP: I feel like within Mormonism, you are taught, you know, go to the temple to be closest to God or go you know, when you’re fasting or when you’re praying or when you’re reading your scriptures and, you know, all of those things. And whether I do those things or not, I’ve realized that God is bigger than just that. And those things can have beautiful meaning for people and in different times in my life, but I don’t want to be confined to just that to connect with God.
SH: Right,
AP: And that feels very different from Mormonism.
CW: I really like that you use the word “confined” because that describes my situation exactly. I very much felt confined before, that, like, these were the acceptable ways to feel close to the divine, and now it looks much different, and it’s more accessible, so therefore it can happen all day every day
AP: Mhmm
CW: As opposed to what you’re describing, like these specific moments of, like, going to the temple or fasting. So, agreed, agreed.
AP: Yeah I feel that you know, when, like I said, we were told these specific things helped us to feel closer to God.
SH: Right.
AP: Now as I’m, like, as I think of who my heavenly parents are and what are their characteristics and, you know, what do they do? You know, one of them for me is that Heavenly Mother is a creator. And so when I am creating, when I’m doing things, whether that’s, you know, helping my kids with something or doing my beadwork or cooking or designing something or, you know, painting my house, whatever it is, I can feel-
CW: Yeah
AP: ... connected to her in that time and so there, it just is so much bigger and more enriching. I think that when people have an expansive faith experience, to the outside, to the maybe orthodox member, it looks like they’re falling away.
CW: Yeah.
AP: And people may think that about me right now as I’m expanding and changing how I approach church, but what they may not understand is that I have never felt closer to God- than I do right now.
CW: [whispering] Yeah.
AP: And my relationship is deeper and more enriching than it ever has been. And so we have this fear of changing how we do church, but I think that when you really dig deep into it, it is such a beautiful, deepening [00:40:00] experience.
CW: There was a video that came out recently that a lot of people have been sharing on social media, and I believe it’s the General Relief Society leaders, and they’re saying, ”life’s going to be really hard, but you can do it with Jesus in the church or without him out of the church.”
And I’m like, wow, that is so binary. And so just like what you just said, Anne, is that from the outside, people might think you’re, “falling away,” whereas you’ve just said you’ve never felt closer to God. And so I feel like if I could wave my magic wand, I would get rid of that binary-ness that we are so embedded with in our church that, you know, Jesus is in the church, and outside of the church you’re alone and you’re without divine help.
SH: Right.
CW: Ugh.
AP: Well, and I think that puts such a sad twist on, like, all religions if you’re thinking that people that are outside of our church-
SW: Right. Right
AP: ... can’t connect with God, can’t connect with Jesus, and are just lost souls. I think that we’re missing out on so much beauty that these people in other religions have and can teach us.
SH: Right. Well, I think it also is really limiting. I also love the word “confining” that you used. I think it’s so limiting. Like, I don’t remember whose quote it was. In one of our temple episodes, we read a quote about how “your time in the temple will be the pinnacle of your spiritual life” or something. It was a word like that. And I thought to myself, okay, that was just never going to be the case for me, which made me think, well, “I’m doing all of this wrong, obviously.”
CW: Right.
SH: I’m not experiencing what they said I would experience at the times that they think I should be experiencing it. And so, it would’ve been pretty easy for me to actually walk away from pursuing any kind of relationship with God because I had spent my life doing the things that I thought I was supposed to do to pursue that, and not gotten the results that I was promised.
And so therefore, why would I think there was gonna be any chance of me doing that, doing my own thing, right? Or going at it in different ways than they were saying. And so I feel like we really do with that kind of binary, we really do set people up to fail
AP: Mhmm
SH: In their spiritual lives if it doesn’t fit, you know, exactly within the confines of what they have defined as being the way to find God.
AP: Yeah. And it sets people up, like you’re saying, to fail even with if that means scrupulosity or,
SH: Exactly. There are all kinds of things failing can mean. It absolutely is a spectrum of disappointments and missed connections and all of those things.
AP: Yeah.
CW: Thank you, Anne.
SH: Thanks, Anne.
CW: This has been lovely.
AP: Yeah, this is fun.
_____
CW: All right, Susan. Jen Dilley, it was so lovely to have her back on the podcast. We sure loved her conversation, our conversation we had with her, I don’t know, was it a year or two ago? By, I don’t even remember how long it’s been since-
SH: I don’t either but I’ll link to it in the show notes, Cynthia.[laughing]
CW: Yes.
SH: So our listeners can find it there. Any opportunity to have a conversation with Jen is a good opportunity.
CW: Yeah.
SH: So let’s talk about what we talked about.
CW: Right. Well, what stood out to me with Jen that I wanted to chat about with you for a little bit is, and maybe just ‘cause it’s personal, so it’s just, like, she is craving our church leaders speaking up about the whole mess that the world is in right now.
SH: Mhmm.
CW: And I feel that deeply as well. And I don’t know, Susan, it just…tell me if this is fair or unfair. Like, the church seems to want to keep a particular segment of our church membership very happy. And so, is that why they’re not speaking out about the absolute dumpster fire that’s happening in our country right now?
I don’t know. I mean, here was kind of a parallel for me, was during the temple and priesthood ban on members of African descent, like, “white members need,” I’m putting that in air quotes there, they “needed segregation,” meaning racism…Their need for segregation was prioritized over blessings for Black members.
And so post-COVID, it feels like to me, we now prioritize…there is a segment of our church that is Christian nationalist. I don’t know. I don’t even wanna say we’re prioritizing, like, gosh, I’m so sorry I’m getting political here, but this is a moral issue, Susan. Yeah, there’s,
SH: There’s, agreed, but I think this is a complicated conversation, so yeah, continue and then I’m gonna weigh in.
CW: Well, just I mean, I [00:45:00] wanted to be specific about saying, like, this is a Christian nationalist problem of whom, of which we have a few, a lot, I don’t know, Christian nationalists in our church ‘cause I don’t even wanna say, like, “Republican” because I have so many good friends who are Republicans, and they are devastated at what is going on at their party’s embrace of this morally bankrupt person leading our country whose name I won’t even say. So I don’t know. I’m with Jen. She’s craving our leaders speaking up and so am I, and it’s just not happening.
SH: Yeah. No, I feel that deeply. I agree, and I was so glad that Jen brought it up so that we could bring it up. The reason that I was thinking it’s complicated is that my own idea about how I would respond to this actually sort of morphed while you were talking. And so I’m gonna say more about that, because when you put it in the context of the priesthood ban and you were saying they were prioritizing white members’ “need” for segregation- I really wish that I knew if it wasn’t just some people in high leadership prioritizing their own racism.
CW: Ohh.
SH: If you see what I’m saying. Maybe they weren’t even thinking about the effect on members because it was so deeply ingrained for them-
CW: Yeah
SH: …that they didn’t even have to think that far out.
CW: Yeah.
SH: And then it gets complicated to me when you move that forward, gosh, however many years are we talking? 50 years later, and we have COVID come along and we see this, you know, you used one to give context to the other. And the thing is, that’s a case where I think we had a doctor at the head of the church, so I think he was going to prioritize his medical responsibility that he felt toward people in that situation. I think that it never occurred to many people, and I mean, I say that because it honestly never occurred to me that this health crisis would break down along political lines-
CW: Right
SH: ... to the degree that it did. And so I’m not sure that they really thought about that. And so they spoke out, and then it was kind of, I was gonna say a fiasco because it didn’t go well for them, but I’m not sure even how they perceived that or how most members perceived it. I just know I’d never seen anything like it in my lifetime...the kind of backlash that they received for that.
And so that brings us forward to what’s going on in the country today where some religious leaders are speaking out. Ours are not, and yet we have listeners who have pointed out to us, we just had a whole general conference where they did nothing but speak out about this, right? So members are hearing messages differently, perceiving messages differently.
You and I and Jen feel like they’re not saying the things that we want them to be saying. I think some members feel like they are handling this in the way that they would want and expect them to. And I just feel like that whole experience around COVID totally muddied the water-
CW: 100%
SH: ... for leaders about what they should, the way that they should handle this. That’s just what I think, from the cheap seats.
CW: Well, from the cheap seats, it breaks my heart that we can’t just do what is right and let the consequence follow.
SH: 100% agree.
SH: ‘Cause I have no doubt that if the church spoke out about what’s going on right now, that it would really tick off a huge segment. And you know what? Too bad.
SH: Agree.
CW: Too bad.
SH: And then this gets to a lot of underlying questions, like what’s really important? What do they perceive as their job as leaders of the church?
CW: Right.
SH: Is that to offer pastoral care to the members? Is that to offer moral guidance to the world, like to serve as a prophetic beacon, you know, to the world on moral questions? And so I think it’s a pretty complicated soup actually that they’re trying to wade through in making these decisions. But I guess for me, in my heart, I wish that there was really only one question, and that is, “what would Jesus want us to say in this moment?”
CW: Nice. Yeah. I’m with you.
SH: Also, I’m really glad I’m not a leader. I think that about once a day in my life. I think if there was nothing-
CW: That’s really what you think?
SH: Oh, I think it all the time. That I do not wanna be a leader of this church.
CW: I think all the time, if I were queen for a day, oh no no no, Susan. You need to turn that frown upside down and be like, “If I were queen for a day, the world would be perfect.” [laughing]
SH: Oh, well I mean, I’m not saying that I don’t think my ideas are better than everyone else’s. Of course I do, Cynthia. [laughing]
CW: Okay. Okay. Whew.
SH: That’s why I have a podcast. Every podcaster thinks their ideas are better-
CW: Thank goodness
SH: ... than everyone else’s. It’s not that. I just wouldn’t want to have to be, I wouldn’t wanna have to be wading through the morass that I feel like they are and trying to make these decisions. I’m old. I’m tired. I don’t know. I don’t know what I would, I mean, I [00:50:00] understand some of the political, and I don’t mean that in like the two-party United States way. I mean political in the larger sort of meaning, the political decisions that they have to make.
But Jesus didn’t care about that. Jesus did not he didn’t care about the political considerations of the words that rolled out of his mouth, clearly-
CW: Thank goodness ...
SH: …as I perceive him anyway.
CW: Right. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, I have one more thing to say about our conversation with Jen Dilley, and it’ll take me a minute to make my point. I promise I’ll get there. But we had a recent episode with a voicemail at the end where she was pontificating that she had a conversation with her Relief Society president, and the Relief Society president was worried with the recent changes that women could be Sunday school presidents now, that men would no longer feel needed.
SH: Mhmm.
CW: And I’m just thinking, why do we always center men? Is that why, getting back to Jen’s conversation, is that why we center Heavenly Father only? Because Susan, you said, “it has not served us well on any level.” I believe that’s exactly what you said in the conversation.
SH: Yes, that sounds like me. [laughing]
CW: Okay, but I’m gonna also... I’m gonna quote another Hinckley. I’m gonna quote your mama.
SH: Okay. You’ve told me before that when your mom might hear, I don’t know, people being a little ridiculous, she says-
SH: Oh, no. It’s just my dad
CW: ... oh. It’s if my mom hears my dad, Cynthia. [laughing]
CW: Oh, it’s when your mom-
SH: Whatever my dad says
CW: Then your mom likes to add a PS, and she says, “In your opinion.” [laughing]
SH: Right, “In your opinion.”
CW: It’s so good.
SH: And she often emphasizes it with her finger. “In your opinion.”
CW: She’s wagging her finger as she says, “In your opinion,” right? Well, because I do think it served a purpose. Or I’m not sure if I’m talking just about the Sunday school presidency or if I’m just talking about God now or maybe both, but I think it served a purpose to center men, to center God as only male.
I mean, do we even acknowledge that Heavenly Mother is a god? Like, have we actually? We just say she’s married to Heavenly Father- I don’t even know actually what we say. We acknowledge we have a Heavenly Mother, but I don’t-
SH: We have a Heavenly Mother. But that’s it. I think that’s what we say. Yeah, I think that’s the limit of what we say, really, as I think about it. Okay. I am going to say that I care about specific words, and I said, “it has not served us well.” And so I think serving a purpose, which is the way that you framed it- is not the same as serving us well.
CW: Correct.
SH: And that is also in my opinion, Cynthia.
CW: In your opinion. I should just start adding that to everything I say.
SH: I should just start adding that to everything I say. But what I mean by that, it hasn’t served us well to center men, is that I don’t believe it has been to the betterment of any segment in our church. I mean, certainly not women. That we, that’s what this whole podcast is about. Not young women or girls, but also not men, young men, or boys.
CW: For sure.
SH: ... because yeah, when females are never centered, even and actually maybe especially is the right word in divinity, so going back to the idea of Heavenly Mother, then everyone’s vision is skewed. We’re looking through one lens, right? And that affects not only the female experience, but it spills over onto gender roles generally as they’re perceived by both sexes-
CW: Mhmm.
SH: By members of our church. And so then that, as we’ve talked about 1,000 times, creates this widening disconnect with what many of us, and definitely the younger generations in the church are seeing and experiencing in the larger world. It’s like the chasm just kind of keeps getting bigger around that.
And so I feel like we’ve done a disservice across many generations with this, but now we’re continuing to actively perpetuate that disservice into the future on our youth and children by continuing to not center women ever, really.
CW: Mic drop.
SH: Yeah. But I think that a lot of members would say, “Oh, no, women are definitely centered because they’re revered and loved” and “we love the women, Cynthia. We love the women.”
CW: We love the women. Well, and we all have said a million times, “Keep your patronizing pedestal and give me equality instead.” But anyway- moving on. What do you wanna say about Jen’s, our conversation with Jen before we move on?
SH: There was a sentence in our conversation with Jen, not a question I guess, that I have not stopped thinking about, and that was-
CW: Oh, okay
SH: …”do you want to be in a church where you have zero expectations?”
CW: [laughing]
SH: I mean, that just landed with a thud, and it’s just, like, still sitting in the middle of my mental room. And I think the reason is because giving up all expectations is really kind of foundational, I guess, to how I’ve made peace with a lot of things in the church.
CW: Okay, so you’re saying that resonates with [00:55:00] you. You have given up all expectations-
SH: I have. I had to. I had to.
CW: Okay, go on.
SH: I can’t go to church on Sunday and have a lot of expectations for things that are just going to disappoint me. That just does not work for me. That does not serve me. So giving those away was actually pretty easy for me.
But Jen’s question made me really pause and wonder, like, if we can’t have expectations for the people that we consider to be moral leaders, I mean, talking about our leadership- if we can’t have expectations of them, then what is the point of having moral leaders?
CW: Mhmm [snickers]
SH: Doesn’t that position come with inherent expectations? And so to give all of those away, well, let me just say I’m really glad to have the opportunity to reexamine that tactic because it’s worked for me personally on a lot of levels, but I feel like it’s deeply flawed on some larger levels, and so I gotta think more about that for me.
CW: Okay, so in a way, Jen, when she said that line, held up a mirror to you, and you-
SH: Absolutely. Yes.
CW: And you didn’t like what you saw looking back.
SH: 100%. And it’s not necessarily that I didn’t like what I saw. It’s the first time I had questioned that. I hadn’t really thought about, okay, on the flip side, this has another effect, and so Jen caused me to confront that. There’s one more thing I wanted to visit, just one tiny thought I wanted to visit from our conversation with Jen before we move on, and that is the idea of sacred versus secret.
CW: [laughing] I’m sorry, share it.
SH: Can we just talk about that for a minute?
CW: Okay, go ahead.
SH: I feel like so many secrets hide behind the word sacred in our church. It’s like the perfect disguise for things because no one dares to question something if you slap the label “sacred.” It’s like it’s too sacred to talk about. It’s a word that grants total immunity among church members, I feel like.
CW: I total- can I bring up your visual of the velvet ropes? Like I think when we call something-
SH: Yeah, it’s the ultimate velvet rope.
CW: Yeah ... yeah when we call something sacred, we put it behind a velvet rope. “Do not cross this rope. Do not touch it. Stay behind it.”
SH: Yeah. I was thinking about this because we had, we’ve had, I’ve noticed in our Substack chat and other places online that there have been a portion of members whose minds have recently been blown by a video about this, that was talking about the second anointing. Do you know what I’m referring to?
CW: Mhmm.
SH: Okay. So they’re talking, suddenly they’re talking about the second anointing, which is something that I think a lot of members knew or have known nothing about. I mean, I, we still don’t know very much about it at all because it’s too sacred, Cynthia. It’s Holy of Holies, literally, so sacred. [laughing] It’s just so sacred that it’s never been talked about among or to the general membership of the church. Well, like, to me, that looks an awful lot like a secret practice.
CW: Yeah.
SH: It may or may not be sacred. Whatever, you know, maybe it is. I can’t judge that. It can’t be sacred to me because I know nothing about it.
CW: Right.
SH: But it is definitely secret.
CW: Good point.
SH: And I feel like with Heavenly Mother, this is just the obfuscation that never ends. She’s too sacred to talk about, and therefore we’re not even gonna ask for further light and knowledge on this subject, right? Because it’s arrogant of us to ask-
CW: That’s right
SH: …about something that’s obviously- Arrogance is the word. ... So sacred that we have very little information about it.
CW: Ah.
SH: Well, I’m gonna call BS on that whole sacred versus secret thing. I think things can be both sacred and secret, but the fact that something is sacred is not a justification for keeping it secret.
CW: Well said.
_____
Alright. Let’s talk for a few minutes about what we learned from Jessie.
SH: I just love Jessie. Can I just say that?
CW: Love, love Jessie. Please, Jessie, come back on. We will contact you in the fall ‘cause I’ll tell you why in a minute, but go ahead.
SH: I was thinking the first question that we asked Jessie was about sacrifice, right? And I was just thinking when I listened to her talk that I’m guessing that there would be a pretty bright line in our church right down the middle of the pews between women who think that sacrifice comes with negative connotations, which I think is what she said about how she felt about it, versus women who think that sacrifice is virtuous.
And if you went a little deeper on that question and you asked how many women feel like they have sacrificed their self as a result of being Latter-day Saint- because that’s what Jessie talked about. She’s like, “I had sacrificed who I am,” so you know, she didn’t really know herself. I mean, I, this was so resonant to me because this was so my experience.
CW: Yeah.
SH: This was so my [01:00:00] experience in the church of just having, trying to be two people because I had the person that I knew I was, but then also my church self. And so I-
CW: Wow
SH:... sacrificed that first one in order to be able to fit in the second one, and that one always had to get privileged. And so I think things would get very uncomfortable if you started really poking around a Relief Society room with that question. ‘Cause I think a lot of women would never have identified that they had engaged in that kind of self-silencing. Anyway, I’m just really glad that Jessie brought it up, and glad that she has, you know, seen that for what it is and been able to, I guess, claw that sacrifice back for herself in the ways that I have also.
CW: Yeah. Good stuff. Well, I have a couple things. I have a lot of things, actually, more than a couple things I’ve wanted to talk about as a result of our conversation with Jessie. But we’re short on time, so I’m just gonna make one point, which is, oh my gosh, this so completely resonated with me. I mean, I would love to explore the idea more, maybe next season, Susan, maybe with Jessie, that Jesus doesn’t fix everything. Because like Jessie, that is what I was taught, was that Jesus heals your wounds he will make it all better. He will dry every tear, and yet that hasn’t been the case for me either.
And so when Jessie said, like, she had this ugly cry moment in her son’s bedroom, realizing in this life she, there is no, “I am fixed.” That just really, really touched me, and I don’t even know that I have been brave enough to articulate, ‘cause I don’t know that I’m ready to articulate how I feel about Jesus fixing everything, like Jesus being the Savior.
I mean, the only thing I’ve alluded to before on the pod is saying I have, “I feel solidarity when I’m in suffering.” But I think I’ve been careful about not saying, like, I felt healed-
SH: Right, right
CW: … through the atonement. I have more to say another time, but I was just really glad that she brought that up. I thought it was really brave.
SH: It was so brave. And what really struck me about that story was she went one step further and said she didn’t think she would ever reach that point where-
CW: Yes
SH: … She was healed. You know, even if, I think the phrase was quote, “The eternities are real,” right?
CW: Yes.
SH: I resonated with that so deeply as well.
CW: I knew you would.
SH: Yeah, because, well, you’ve heard me say before, I wouldn’t know what it would look like to be a perfected me in the eternities. What, who even is that? Why do I wanna be that person? But so giving that away, that idea of things being fixed has actually brought me peace.
But it also occurred to me that this is a problem in wider Christianity generally, this idea that Jesus fixes everything, and what you do with that in a world where clearly nothing is fixed.
CW: Okay. I was gonna skip the part about uncertainty when Jessie talked about it, but it’s in our title, so I just wanna nod to it once again. I think even in a conversation talking about peace and comfort, even uncertainty comes into that convo. So I love when she said, like, doubt used to consume her, but now she felt a lot of peace in that uncertainty, and I was like yes yes yes.
SH: I never wanna skip talking about uncertainty because I think it’s the key to so many things about this life. I’m reading right now Pema Chödrön’s book, “Comfortable With Uncertainty,” which is one of her most foundational books. I don’t know how I hadn’t read it yet.
CW: I haven’t either.
SH: But she poses the question at the beginning of that book, “Do I prefer to grow up and relate to life directly, or do I choose to live and die in fear?” Well, I mean, I was choosing to live and die in fear for about, you know, 50 years. But I hadn’t really ever considered that the expectation that Jesus would fix everything might be a way of cushioning ourselves from relating to life directly.
CW: Wow.
SH: It’s like something that we do instead of growing up and getting comfortable in the reality of life. And I’m just gonna share one quick quote from the book with you where she says, “We can bring ourselves back to the spiritual path countless times every day simply by exercising our willingness to rest in the uncertainty of the present moment over and over again.” And this is me redirecting myself to presence 7,000 times a day right now, and it never sticks. But I’m gonna keep doing it.
CW: Beautiful.
SH: Because I do think that’s where the peace is.
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CW: Alright. Anne Pimentel has been on the pod a couple of times, so we will link to her episodes as well. But what do you wanna say about Miss Anne? Anne with an E coming back on.
SH: Anne with an E. Okay, I love Anne’s take on things, too. Cynthia, our listeners are so [01:05:00] smart. I’m not sure why we have the podcast, because every time we have a guest on and I hear them speak, I’m like, “Dang it. Why didn’t I ever think of that?” But I loved where she was talking about forgiving herself in a situation that she’d been through, and she framed it with this sentence: “I didn’t need to carry the weight of what her story about the situation was.”
CW: Mm.
SH: And I love that line so much because carrying the weight of other people’s stories about things, carrying the weight of the story that the church was telling me about things, and carrying the weight to be you know, fully honest, carrying the weight of my own story that I have been telling myself about things, like, that is a lot of weight.
And when you strip story away from that, when story becomes the launching pad, right, like we said in an earlier episode this season, when story becomes the launching pad instead of the landing place man, you just shed a lot of dead weight.
CW: Yeah. Yeah, I loved when she talked about, you know, “The story I’m telling myself is,” and my antenna immediately went up, Brene Brown-
SH: Right, right
CW: …because that’s where I read it in, I don’t know if that’s where Anne read it, but I read it in Brene Brown’s book, Rising Strong. And it’s interesting because hearing Anne say, like she does that with her husband now, “The story I’m telling myself is da da da,” I’m like, okay, why haven’t I done that with my husband?
Like, I only say it, like internally to myself, like when I start- ... you know, making up all these ways of, “You hurt me, and this is what they were trying, you know, they meant to hurt me,” you know? I only tell that to myself, but I’m gonna actually have a conversation with my husband, and I’m gonna say, “I’m going to start saying this now,” ‘cause I think Anne is so wise to approach difficult conversations with her husband by saying, you know, “The story I’m telling myself is,” which, you know, is basically saying, my perspective on things is, or how I absorbed it is, or whatever.
So, thank you, Anne. I’m going to incorporate that as well. But I just wanted to give a nod to Brene Brown. In an interview, or in an article she wrote for Oprah Magazine about that, she said, her husband Steve, one day he opened the refrigerator and he sighed and he said, “We have no groceries, not even lunch meat.”
And this is a direct quote from Brene. She said, “I shot back, ‘I’m doing the best I can. You can shop, too.’ ‘I know,’ he said in a measured tone. ‘I do it every week. What’s going on?’” She says, “I knew exactly what was going on. I had turned his comment into a story about how I’m a disorganized, unreliable partner and mother.
I apologized and started my next sentence with the phrase that’s become a lifesaver in my marriage, parenting, and professional life. ‘The story I’m making up is that you were blaming me for not having groceries, that I was screwing up.’” Steve said, “No, I was gonna shop yesterday, but I didn’t have time. I’m not blaming you, I’m hungry.”
I’m gonna link to the full article because every sentence of that article is unbelievable. But I am committing to you right now, Susan, I am actually going to start saying it out loud to the people I love, not just inside my own head.
SH: I am willing to give that a shot also. And so yeah, I’ll check in with you and see how this goes. I’m really interested to try it, and the thing that I love the most about the way Brené Brown phrases it in that quote is that she says, “The story I’m making up.”
CW: Yes.
SH: Right? Because oh man, that is me making up this narration all the time-
CW: Sure
SH: ... about everything in the world, right?
CW: We all do.
SH: But it’s but made up. It’s made up, Cynthia. It’s wholly made up. Oh, gosh. The thing that I was thinking about is that I love that Anne said, and maybe it’s because it’s personal. She mentioned we’re all doing The Living School, and that their motto is kind of the curriculum of “The Living School is your life”. But she used it to frame the sort of journey to, I guess, maybe rediscovering God or how you encounter God, changing your expectations maybe about how you encounter God, that actually your whole life is the-
CW: Yes
SH: …is the means for that. Yes. Yeah. Not just the “spiritual things” that you do or, you know, religious practices that you engage in, and I just loved her whole expansive take on that.
CW: I think everything changes when you realize the curriculum for everything that’s meaningful in your life is simply your-
SH: Your life.
CW: … life. You know, ‘cause Anne talked about, you know, finding God in the everyday moments as opposed to just in the sacred spaces that our church leaders tell us are, “These are the sacred spaces. This is where you will feel closest to God.” And it’s like, well, maybe for some, but we need to be open to when that’s not working, figuring out what will work for [01:10:00] us. And personally, the curriculum of my life is where I have found sacredness and holiness, just the everyday.
SH: I mean, yes, and just hearing you say that made me think the curriculum of your life is also what has blown the lid off everything.
CW: Yes.
SH: And so our life is a pretty good teacher and a pretty good workshop-
CW: Yes
SH: … and a pretty good laboratory if we allow it. It’s a pretty good curriculum if we allow it to be so. But was there anything in your life as a Latter-day Saint that made you believe that your life was really the place where all of this was supposed to be worked out? That it was, like, the ultimate vehicle for you? Like, I felt like the church was supposed to be the ultimate vehicle for what I learned how to be with God.
CW: Right. I think it’s pretty explicit. Yeah. I think so.
SH: Well, it changes everything-
CW: It changes everything when your life becomes the curriculum for all of the beautiful, sacred moments that there are, that abound.
SH: I cannot thank these women enough, as always, Cynthia.
CW: Can’t thank them enough. This was lovely. Thanks for showing up and contemplating a few things with me, Susan.
SH: Absolutely, my pleasure.
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Voicemail 1: Hey, Cynthia and Susan. I’m just listening to episode 156, “What About Consent?” And you guys talk a lot about agency, and that’s something that I was really wrapped up with in my upbringing in the church. But in my returning to activity and my personal study of the doctrine, separate from opinion of leaders or members, I understand agency to be simply our ability to choose.
I don’t know why culturally we’ve conflated it into something larger than that, but in everything scripturally and doctrinally that I can find, that’s simply what it is. I think people conflate it too often with the concept of free will, which is simply meaning that we have lives that are not predetermined or predestined to be or end a certain way.
And I think that free will and our ability to choose or agency go hand-in-hand and are essential in the plan of salvation, and nothing in the plan of salvation works if we do not simply have the ability to choose and free will. And I think that LDS members need to start to understand that is the doctrine, not this weird cultural odd understanding that we’ve come to gain of agency.
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Voicemail 2: Hello Cynthia and Susan. I just listened to your episode 258, your rage cast potpourri. I have not been practicing for about 12 years, for a while now, but I love listening to your podcast because most of my family, the majority of my family are still active, so I like to kind of keep a pulse on what’s going on.
And also, honestly, I really miss going to church. There are so many things I have issues with, and so it would be hard for me to go back to church, but I do miss church, and so I appreciate your guys’ podcast ‘cause it kind of gives me the churchy vibe without being too crazy. Anyway, so very much appreciate you guys.
With regards to that episode specifically speaking to the comments from men about women and the priesthood, what I don’t understand is why men aren’t more insulted by the thought that they are so unspecial and they’re such scoundrels and they have nothing to offer the world, and so they have to be given the priesthood in order to be as good as women.
Like, why are men okay with that? Why aren’t they insulted by that idea? I don’t know. It’s so bizarre to me. Thank you so much for all you do. Bye.
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CW: Susan, I just realized my window’s open a little and I heard an airplane. You probably did too. Let me close it. Sorry. I’m the weak link today.
SH: There’s your blooper for the end of this call.
CW: There’s my blooper. And the wind chimes too. Serenity now. Hit the wind chimes. Serenity now. Okay. Sorry, let me calm down. All right.
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SH: So, like you just take all the time you need.
CW: Yep.
JD: You both are so amazing. That’s incredible.
CW: No, I got Hershey Kisses here. I’m fine, so. Okay.
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SH: Let me just get my head together. I was just thinking, “What’s wrong with this?” Okay. Let me get my head together here.
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CW: Okay, I’m gonna skip that next section.
SH: Are you? Okay, but uncertainty is in the title. Oh, damn it. We can’t skip that. We could skip the other one, but we can’t skip that one. Oh, shoot. [01:15:00]
CW: What was I thinking? You’re right. Okay. All right. Let me get us there.
CW: Thanks. All right. Let’s hit stop.
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