Episode 255 (Transcript): What Do You Say? | 3 Conversations About Spiritual Seeking, Being Forgotten, and Chasing Equality
Episode Transcript
Many thanks to listener Rachel Cousin for her work in transcribing this episode!
This episode can be found on any podcast app or can be listened to here on our website as well. All the notes and resources we cited in the episode are found at this link as well:
DA: I don’t grieve my child not being at church now. I wouldn’t wish her back at this point. Having a relationship with God, wonderful. Walking with Christ? Yes, please. Coming into an LDS church building and being subjected to what our trans and non-binary gender fluid, gender expansive members are being asked to do? No way.
SH: Hello, I’m Susan Hinckley.
CW: And I am Cynthia Winward.
SH: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things. And the title of today’s episode is, “What Do You Say: Three Conversations about Spiritual Seeking, Being Forgotten, and Chasing Equality.”
CW: Mmmm.
SH: So, you know, as soon as we started doing our Journey episodes, Cynthia, soon after that I started to have a hunch that we could have an interesting conversation with pretty much any LDS woman.
CW: Agreed.
SH: I really couldn’t always predict who was gonna be the most interesting of those conversations and some of my favorites are people that I really didn’t know anything about. And that’s why I thought it might be a good idea to add the cards to this season and see how many more women we could get on here. And so we’re starting with three conversations today. We’ve been batch recording these. It’s been really fun. Well, it’s been really fun for me.
CW: It has been fun.
SH: I’m not sure it has been really fun for all the women. In fact, I think one of them might tell us this is not fun.
CW: Yeah. She says it so lovingly in a British accent, so that makes it even better. So, teaser.
SH: Yeah. But I’ve had a great time with it. But I was thinking this week, knowing that we were preparing for this episode to come out - releasing the first one of these, I heard Krista Tippet say something that was so interesting to me the other day, and she was talking about why in the beginning of On Being, she decided to start every conversation by asking the guest about their origins, like their religious origins or spiritual origins. And she said the reason that I settled on that question was because I’d had an experience with some Benedictines, with whom I was close, who came at really big spiritual questions using this line. And the line was, “Answer the question through the story of your life.”
CW: Wow.
SH: Answer the question through the story of your life.
CW: Yeah.
SH: And I thought that is what we’ve been doing on At Last She Said It. And that’s really what the point of these What Do You Say episodes are - to give women an opportunity to talk about some of the issues, some of the topics, some of the big ideas that we talk about on this podcast through the story of their lives.
Because we can all answer these questions just based on our experiences. We’re not asking anything hard. We’re not asking for anything that requires any kind of book learning or theological expertise or anything else. It’s just like you and I - we wanna come at these topics just through our personal experiences. And so I’m really excited to have the opportunity to hear more women answering big questions through the story of their very regular Latter-Day Saint woman lives.
CW: I actually think that’s one reason our podcast has been so successful is -
SH: Totally agree.
CW: - you and I are not theologians or historians. We have no expertise other than our stories and the women that have come on over the last six years telling their stories.
SH: Right.
CW: Dang. There’s a lot of power in that. So I’m glad you started with that quote. Okay, listeners, so here’s how it’s gonna go. We’re gonna have three women that we’re gonna ask some of our questions to and then Susan and I are gonna come back at the end and kind of wrap it all up in something we’re gonna call Contemplation Corner.
Laughter
CW: Sorry, I didn’t mean to -
SH: Cynthia and Susan’s Contemplation Corner.
CW: It’s like we’re little preschoolers sitting on the rug.
SH: That does sound pretty ridiculous. But you have to preface this by saying that we’re doing The Living School right now. And so contemplation is looming very large in our collective psyche and what’s - I used to text to you “women’s lives,” probably most of all. Now it’s the hashtag “bad contemplative.”
Laughter
CW: Yes.
SH: I’m flunking. I’m flunking The Living School, Cynthia. I’m terrible at this. So that’s why we’re gonna have Contemplation Corner in hopes that I might get a little better at it. How about that?
CW: Well, you know, a little alliteration will go a long way, so, let’s be honest, that’s why we’re going with it. So, alright, well let’s roll it and we’ll be back in a little bit.
Interlude
SH: Oh, this is exciting. Cynthia. We’ve got Aubrey Chavez with us. Hi Aubrey.
CW: Woo!
AC: Hi. Thank you. I’m excited.
SH: Let’s play. What do you say? I [00:05:00] have got three questions here from the memories category. Would you like question one, two, or three?
AC: Two.
SH: What was the most significant year in your life, if you can think about it that way?
AC: Oh, there are probably like so many more correct answers. But the one that is coming to my mind right now is that in college I actually registered for classes late and I missed my next level in my program. And so I decided to do a study abroad in, this was in 2005. And it was kind of a, I might as well ‘cause I’m in trouble. I have this weird space.
Oh. And it was the - I think it legitimately affected my trajectory forever, just for the way that it blew my mind open. And it wasn’t something that was on my radar. It wasn’t something I had planned. And then even when I got, when I decided to do a study abroad, there were not very many options.
And so I ended up in Mexico, which I remember being disappointed by. And I was so glad that’s how it played out because it was the beginning of just this deep affection that I have for the country, but also for so many of my neighbors. And then I became a teacher and I had so many students who had just arrived who were learning English, and I just felt like I had this connection with them that was so warm. I felt like I just wanted to talk about everything they remembered and where they were from, and so I think it created a lot of fertile ground for connection, but also for learning. It whet my appetite for understanding cultures and wanting to travel more.
And it feels like traveling is such a rich education. Your brain has to be firing on every level. And it’s hard and stretching in the best way and kind of a shock to your system. And I think I stumbled into it and it’s changed so much about who I am and about people that I love.
So, in a lot of ways, I think that year was - and it wasn’t a year, it was just a semester. But I think that was such important growth that I feel so grateful for because it had such serious ripples -
CW: Sounds like it.
AC: - through the rest of my life.
CW: So was this just your little freshman year, you’re 18, or were you in your twenties by then?
AC: No, I think I had, I was - I would’ve been 20, so I was almost done with my program, which is why it was a big deal that I -
CW: That you messed up and forgot.
AC: - Yes. And it just, it was such a gift. And I remember there was a kid in one of my classes who was just like, why are you panicking? I mean, I was having a meltdown. I cannot believe I flaked. It was such a big deal. And I remember him being like, what’s wrong? This is awesome. Go on a study abroad. And I don’t remember his name. But it really did change my life in so many ways.
SH: Do you feel like it helped you maybe trust the universe to take care of you a little better? Because sometimes I think I am a hundred percent certain that my plan is the best thing, and so when something totally falls apart, but it turns out being a really great thing, I never seem to remember that next time. Ever. This is a lesson I cannot learn. So I’m wondering how that lesson turned out for you. Has it helped in your life?
AC: Yes. I think when I travel now with kids, one of the things that we always talk about before we leave is saying yes to adventure because I, and it’s for me - I just have to remember that it is always - it’s either something great that you were hoping happened or it’s an adventure. Like something bumpy happens and always when you get home, that’s part of the story and part of it does feel like an adventure when you’re through it.
And I do feel like over and over I’ve learned that there’s just no such thing as something going wrong. There’s always goodness in the stumbling, in the mishaps. And the people who help you along the way. I just don’t think anything has ever happened yet where I’m just like, this was 100% not made good eventually. And so I’m not sure I feel like God was intervening in sending me to Mexico and making me forget the thing. But I do feel like the lesson is that there’s just nothing so bad that it can’t be used for my growth and used to enrich my life in some way that is genuinely good.
CW: And also Aubrey, as a woman now who is many years away from college, I’m sure you look back on that and you think, oh my gosh, those were the easy years, right? You thought that was so catastrophic then, and now you’re like - well, maybe I should speak for myself. I’m like, give me the easy college days because I did not sign up for a lot of this other hard stuff. But, anyway -
SH: Right?
AC: That is so real. And I’ve thought about that too. Once we started having kids and I [00:10:00] remember how maxed out I felt with one baby and then how maxed out I felt with two babies and it’s like light. I just feel like at every stage when you’re on the edge of your growth, it’s just, it is the hardest thing. It feels -
CW: That’s true.
AC: It’s as hard as it feels now, but you have a new edge, hopefully. And so, I think the experience in the sensations in my body were probably the same. And I’d like to go back with my brain now and do it again. Because I think it would be fun.
SH: Yes.
AC: But I know that it felt like the hardest thing I’m doing now.
CW: That’s really good. Alright, let’s go to insights. Would you like one, two, or three?
AC: How about three?
CW: Are you an introvert or an extrovert? And how has that affected your church experience?
AC: Oh, I am an extrovert and I’ve learned that - you know, they say how introverts get their energy from being in solitude and extroverts get their energy from being with people. And I’m sure there’s more to it than that, but I have learned that I need people. And, when I’m with people, it gives me sometimes too much energy. I do feel like I’m buzzing and like I have to - I was confused about if I was an extrovert or introvert, because I know I need time to decompress after I’ve been with people.
But it’s because I’ve got so much energy. It’s like a high. I can’t settle down. And so in a lot of ways that has made church work for me because it’s like a, it’s been a way to find people and community instantly. And I have a really hard time making new - maybe this is an adult thing, it’s hard to make new friends.
I love old friends and just like the comfort of being with people who know you so deeply and there’s just no - you can just, you can be off. And so I think that church has worked - it’s like it’s covered a multitude of sins because it’s been a way for me to just feel instant welcome. Here are women to meet and here are women to work with and here are families to gather with. And so it’s made some of the hardest things easy for me. Instead of having to find ways to make friends, these are easy friends. If you’d like to opt in. And so in that way, it’s been so good.
Tim, on the other hand, is a super introvert. And so it’s been really interesting as that’s become - when we’ve started talking about this. We read Susan Kane’s book Quiet, which is about introverts.
CW: Yes.
AC: And it was like this whole world opened up and I started understanding that what is feeding my soul is literally draining the life out of him.
CW: Uh huh.
SH: Right?
AC: So it’s been good to have language around this because I understand that this is part of what I need from church and this is such a huge benefit for me at church, but it’s not the true thing. It’s not universal. It’s not what Tim needs. And so I’ve had to make that more my own and understand that I’m getting a real need met.
But that’s not because it’s the right thing. It’s just, I really am an extrovert and this feeds my soul so I can go all in and appreciate the community and the gathering and the being with people. And we’re gonna renegotiate when it comes to doing that as a couple.
CW: I love knowing that about you guys.
SH: Okay. Aubrey, the beliefs category. Let’s see. Would you like question one, two, or three?
AC: How about one.
SH: I love this question. Has the way you think about the afterlife changed, and if so, did losing your previous ideas about it excite or scare you?
AC: Oh wow. I have an answer to this, but I would love to know what you think about this, Susan.
SH: Wait a minute. Are you turning the question on me? This has never happened.
Laughter
AC: I’m allowed, right?
CW: I love you Aubrey, so much.
AC: Can you both answer it? I would love to hear from you both.
CW: Yes. We’ll see how much time we have.
AC: Okay.
SH: Okay, Cynthia, you’re gonna have to bleep this because my initial reaction when I realized I had no belief in the afterlife at all as a total surprise was, holy shit. That was the holy shit moment of my life. And at that point I was 50 years old and so I’d spent five decades testifying about stuff, nodding in class to show that I agreed with it. Everything - all these ideas that we talk about, and, let’s be honest, so much of LDS, I guess, time and energy is directed toward the next life.
To have that whole piece just go missing all of a sudden was - I really felt like it stole my entire faith life. Everything about it was just gone when I realized that one piece was missing because it had been so foundational. After that, after the sitting with nothing - the existential terror of nothingness for some years, then it’s been the most exciting thing because it has reintroduced me to this life in a way that, that [00:15:00] I had never really been acquainted with it. And so really kind of trying to learn and value and seek presence in my life has been this retraining that goes back to the very foundations of everything about my life and experience. And so, it’s the most exciting growth I can ever imagine having happened in my life. But the holy shit was real.
CW: Yeah.
SH: It was real.
AC: Thank you.
CW: Yeah, see, this is where Aubrey being also a podcaster is to our detriment, Susan, because she likes asking the questions. That’s why she flipped it.
SH: Right? Okay, Aubrey, answer the question.
Laughter
CW: That’s not the rule, Susan.
SH: Explicit permission. Oh, dang it.
CW: It’s totally up to you, Aubrey. If you don’t wanna answer it, I will, but I love your ideas.
AC: I would love to hear your thoughts, Cynthia, but I’ll just say I had that moment too. It was the thing that I never questioned, even in the middle of what really did feel like deep faith crisis, I felt sure about that piece.
I felt sure that something - I don’t know. I felt sure we’d all be together and it was gonna be okay and whatever happens after it will be good. But I did have - it was like a second wave faith crisis when my first grandparent passed away. I just felt like I expected to feel very close to him still.
SH: Right.
AC: I remember going to the funeral and just looking forward to it because I knew that he would be there and it would feel like he was not gone, and he just felt dead. He just felt so gone. And it was like the floor dropped out again and I felt like, oh my gosh I don’t know about this anymore.
And then I read Sapiens and I was like, okay, well it turns out there is an explanation. It’s like his DNA, his hormones - literally everything makes perfect sense. And it wasn’t even doubting. It was like I knew that this was a new reality. It just felt so concrete again. There’s nothing.
And it was so devastating. But it was also - it created a new ground. And in some ways it felt like such a relief because there was nothing else to lose. It was just like, this is as bad as it gets. There’s nothing left. And that really actually became the ground for, I think, untangling the leftover and still unhealthiest parts of my belief system.
I still was attached to this God who was so disappointed in me and I just never could quite let go of this connection to shame. And when all of that belief slipped through my fingers, I felt peace for the first time because I wasn’t, there wasn’t this looming judgment ever. I just felt like this, like a thriving mammal. Like I was just this animal that is thriving. And it was just this - so after the scary moment it in some ways just felt deeply peaceful. Like everything’s actually okay. I have food, I have shelter, and I’m good.
Like I’m a good mammal. So in some ways that was really - I really needed it to go deeper. I needed to excavate even lower and I didn’t know. And I would say over the years since then, the experience of belief just sort of seeped back in, slowly. And I feel that connection again, somehow. I actually lost three more grandparents, almost one after another in the next four years. And I feel so - I feel all the things I wanted to feel then, and I can’t really explain it, but I just, I choose to just buy it. I don’t feel like I wanna challenge it anymore. I feel super connected.
SH: You don’t have to interrogate it.
AC: Yes. And I don’t know what it means, but I feel like they’re almost, in some ways more a part of my life than before. And it feels like the - it feels like love, it feels like ideas flowing into my mind, in their voices.
And it feels like being accompanied. And so I don’t know what I believe that will look like, or how that makes sense or fits into our theology. But I feel really open to that idea that they’re in my life now and, I don’t know, that’s kind of all there is for me now.
SH: Amazing.
CW: Okay. Aubrey, over the last several years we’ve done this podcast, there have been a few things that people have said that I have never, ever forgotten. But when you came on our podcast a few years ago for - it was our very first Embracing Your Journey episode, and we’ve had many since. You said if you’re leaning into ni - go where your energy is and if it’s nihilism, it’s okay. Go there. And that’s kind of what I hear you describing right now is even though the bottom fell out - and that’s [00:20:00] terrifying when the bottom falls out - it came back, it looked different.
AC: Yeah.
CW: And so all of a sudden, that advice that you said on that episode about if you’re leaning into nihilism, you know, go for it, makes a lot more sense given what you just said.
AC: Yeah, that’s what I learned. And I’ve been reading Falling Upward again this week, and I don’t remember this the first time I read it, so maybe I just needed it right now. But Richard Rohr says that when it comes to spirituality, there are no dead ends. And I trust that. Do you remember that? I just believe it. And I think that’s true. Your spirituality can look like nihilism and I just don’t believe that’s the end of the line.
And that you did something so wrong that you’re gonna be stuck in nihilism forever. I think we can trust that you’re - that’s part of the path where you need to be. You are doing Living School. Yeah. You’re doing The Living School right now, right? Yeah. I don’t remember which module it is, but I think it’s Mike Petro who talks about hell and how hell is what you go through to get to Paradise.
It’s not a destination where you’re sorted. It’s something that - it’s part of the journey. You have to pass through hell. And that makes me feel more trust in our life that things are gonna come and it can’t go wrong. And if you keep going, it’s leading to somewhere good. And that’s the thing I choose to trust now.
CW: Love it. Love it.
SH: Now I wanna ask you every single question in these three decks of cards.
AC: Likewise.
CW: We will have you back another time. Thank you so much, Aubrey.
AC: Thank you both. This was so fun. Yeah. I love you guys.
Interlude
CW: Welcome back to the podcast, Debbie Squires Coleman. We’re so glad to be speaking with you again.
DC: Lovely to see you both. Really lovely to see you both.
SH: Can’t wait to hear how you’re gonna answer these questions, Debbie.
DC: I’m taking it. It’s a, it’s fun. And so, yeah.
CW: Let’s go with that.
SH: We’re just here to have fun.
CW: Okay. Deb, from memories, would you like one, two, or three?
DC: Two.
CW: As an LDS woman, when is the first time you remember feeling proud of yourself?
DC: I don’t know, actually, or that’s quite shameful, isn’t it? Well, no, it’s not shameful. I won’t use that word.
CW: Right. It’s not shameful.
DC: It’s disappointing.
SH: Mmmm.
DC: It’s disappointing for me.
CW: You could pass it, you could flip it.
DC: Yeah.
SH: Or maybe the non-answer is an answer.
CW: That’s true.
DC: Yeah. I suppose just nothing really stands out. As soon as I go say goodbye, something will be there.
CW: Of course.
DC: Yeah.
CW: Maybe Deb, that’s because you are so well adjusted that you’re always proud of yourself. So there isn’t really a first time or something. I don’t know. You seem pretty healthy to me.
DC: Well, I dunno, we all think that, don’t we? We all think we’re healthy.
CW: Mmmm, maybe.
SH: No!
Laughter
CW: Yeah, Susan’s jumping in.
SH: No!
DC: Okay. Yeah, can I pick another one?
SH: Sure.
CW: You bet! We can.
DC: Thank you.
CW: Okay. Would you like one or three?
DC: Three.
CW: What’s something you once thought was normal about the church that you now find unsettling?
DC: People just naturally think they’re gonna grow up and have babies and get married. It was just so normal for me to think that’s what was ahead for me and for every other woman and I, when I talk to my children, that’s not, it’s not unusual and it is quite usual, but it’s not, it doesn’t have to be the norm is what I’m saying.
People can have different ways that they want to live their life, and I think younger people know that more, whereas you just didn’t question it when I was growing up.
SH: Do you think that’s changed in the church?
CW: Or is it a generational, huh?
SH: Presenting more choices or, yeah. Is this generational?
DC: It’s a generational, I think. Yeah. I’m not saying they’re not going to have, get married and have children, but they think more deeply about it. They think about what they want out of married life and how many children. I didn’t even think. I just pumped them out, you know? I don’t think I thought about if we can afford it, if I was healthy enough, if I was mentally healthy enough. It’s just what I had to do. So I think the norm now is to think more deeply about what they want to do.
CW: These go perfectly together, because the word in the question is you thought it was normal, and now you see it unsettling. And I totally agree with you. That is a [00:25:00] very unsettling idea, to just assume that about people growing up in the church. That this is their path. That’s unsettling.
DC: Yeah. Particularly women.
CW: Oh, for sure, for women. We give up so much to bring those children.
DC: Yeah.
SH: But I’d love to talk to a 15-year-old girl in the church now and see what her perception is like. Does she feel like she’s been presented with a wide array of choices?
DC: Yeah, well, I’ve got two grandchildren, well I’ve got 12, but two granddaughters who attend church and one’s 18 and one’s 14. The 14 one definitely wants to get married and have babies. That’s what she wants to do. But the older one is really clear goals about what she wants to do, going to university, working, and just discovering herself really first. She’s not sort of thinking about having babies. She might have a family, but she’s not - I can’t see her doing what I did, but none of my children did either, really. I mean, we were, in my generation, we were having 5, 6, 7. Now it’s two or three, isn’t it?
SH: Right, right.
DC: So I think each generation has thought a bit more clearly about, that’s my experience in the UK anyway. It might be different in Utah, but my experience in the UK is -
CW: Nope! Yeah, that sounds like what’s happening here in the Mormon belt as well.
SH: So, if it’s a generational thing and that’s happening for girls, generally, is the church adjusting to that? Are they adjusting their expectations or is this maybe what’s driving President Oaks to double down immediately on this idea?
DC: That’s just what I was gonna say. I think actually, and I’m gonna get a bit political, but one of the right wing parties in England has just been talking about women having babies. So I just don’t think it’s, yeah, I just don’t think it’s a LDS or a Christian thing. It’s right across the board. Are they frightened of women discovering themselves?
SH: Yes.
DC: Having time to think about what they want. Yeah. I feel as though sometimes when I hear these talks, it’s like, get back into your box, girlies.
CW: Yes.
SH: Yes.
DC: You’re here to have the babies
CW: Get back into your box, girlies.
DC: Yeah. And I understand we need to perpetuate the population, really, but we can do with that, with more thought and more help from the state.
SH: Right.
DC: There’s no, have the babies and we’ll help you here. It’s just you have the babies.
SH: Same. Same in the US for sure. For sure.
DC: Yeah.
CW: Oh, that makes me wanna lie down.
SH: Right? And we hit the lie down part. Okay. Deb, we have a question for you from insights.
DC: This is not fun.
SH: Yes it is.
CW: This is not fun, she says.
Laughter
SH: Would you like one, two, or three?
DC: I’m gonna go for one.
SH: I like this question. What’s an expression of love you are trying to get better at?
DC: Just not owning my kids. They’re not mine to own. They’re mine to walk a path with. Don’t get me wrong. I find it very difficult, not just with my children, but with my husband, but, just allowing people to make their own decisions and walk with them on those decisions.
CW: That’s hard stuff.
DC: It is because every decision that somebody you love makes really impacts you, doesn’t it? That people have to just do it themselves and find their own way, and find joy in the mistakes as well, and find joy in the triumphs.
CW: My follow-up question is - is that hard for your personality or because you’re someone who has - maybe you wanted to prescribe a little bit for people that you love? Or is this just something coming with age where it’s like, I just wanna love the stuffing out of people, like I’m too tired.
DC: I think it’s going back to my first answer to the first question about having babies. I had three babies, three girls. The oldest girl was just three when I had the last girl, and then I had two boys. And I just remember being in church situations, most situations where I had to have control over them to even survive. For my own mental health. And to just live an ordered, somewhat of an ordered day.
I remember being in a road show once and there were a lot of youngsters, little children standing, right up to the stage. And my kids, no. They were in a line sitting on the seats and they weren’t allowed to move. I had to have that amount of control. And then as they got older, it was controlling as well. I wasn’t so bad about what they dressed like, but definitely where they were going, particularly the boys as [00:30:00] well. And I think I just wanted to keep him safe.
But, all of my children have left the church now, except one. Most of them just drifted. But one of my children left with a bit of angst, and it was just a learning curve of letting her do what she wanted to do, letting her be angry with the church. Well, I couldn’t let her, I didn’t, couldn’t do anything about it anyway. But just still walking on that path with her without any judgment and letting her find her way because she was entitled to be angry and let down and feeling a bit bitter. And yeah, I think that process with her has really taught me a lot to try and let go of the kids, particularly as they come into adulthood and be their mom, but a companion as a mom.
SH: Oh, hands down, hardest lesson in my life.
DC: Yeah. So I’m gonna flip that because I feel as though I can learn quite a lot from you in this. So, you two, how do you manage that then?
SH: I don’t think you get to flip it on us since you already answered us, so.
Laughter
DC: Oh, I see. I thought you could answer it and flip it. Oh, that’s not fair. You’ve gotta change the rules.
CW: No,
DC: I thought I was gonna learn something.
CW: Yeah. Susan has answered that question a million times over on the podcast.
SH: A million times online. That’s true.
CW: Anyway.
SH: Just so hard.
CW: Yeah.
SH: I’m glad I’m not the only one struggling with that.
DC: But you know, it’s such a letting them in all different aspects of life is just, I’ve found the most joyful parts of parenthood. As I’ve got older because I’m seeing my children discover who they really are and what they want outta life. And it’s just been, well, I love my kids. I just love seeing them discover the world. And they’re in their thirties and forties, don’t get me wrong. They’re not teenagers,
SH: Right.
DC: Just facing each milestone in their life and just discovering how they’re gonna get over a certain aspect of or difficulty in life. And it’s filled me - joy and our relationship as well is really improved by me letting them.
SH: Mmm. I love that.
CW: All right, Deb, a question from beliefs. Would you like one, two, or three?
DC: Two.
CW: Sorry. Did you say three?
DC: Do you want me to have three? I said two.
CW: You said two. No, I don’t.
SH: Oh, I thought you said three also. I did. So, okay. That’s okay.
CW: No, we’re going with two.
CW: Two. She said two. Okay. Are you comfortable with being forgotten?
DC: Oh, flip. That’s so perfect. Do you mean forgotten when I die? Or forgotten as an older person?
CW: You can take it -
SH: - however you want.
CW: Ooh, I hadn’t thought of it that way.
DC: I’ll take it as both then. Because I feel as though for getting older, I haven’t had a calling, a proper calling for two years. And I’ve always had a calling, like we all, haven’t we? Leadership callings. Haven’t had a proper calling for two years. It’s not really a big ward. So I kind of thought it, I could see the writing on the wall a few years ago. So I reached out into the community more and became a counselor, a political counselor in local government. So I don’t feel as I’m forgotten there. I feel as I’ve got a voice and I’m - my ideas over and I’m really, really enjoying that and the service that enables me to do. But in the church, so many older women in our ward, maybe in the stake, and there’s not a lot for older women to do now, is there because the callings, we haven’t got the callings Relief Society we used to have.
SH: Right?
DC: And so we’ve just got an abundance of older women. And so they want us to still serve, don’t they? They still want us to serve each other, which we love to do and we want to do, but I don’t, they don’t really wanna hear our voices so much. Not in official capacities anyway, because there’s not the callings there. So I feel a bit forgotten that way, but I’m not terribly upset about it because I’ve found other avenues to, to my voice heard.
But the other one, I’m really frightened, fearful of being forgotten when I die. Only because I went to counseling a couple of years ago and I was talking to the counselor about the things we all do for our children, don’t we? And sometimes it comes, it becomes quite busy and stuff. And she said to me, what are you frightened of, that you have to keep doing this? And I just want my grandchildren and children to know how much [00:35:00] they’re loved. Not for me. So I don’t mind being forgotten as a person so much. But I’m frightened of them forgetting how much I loved them.
I want them to be so surrounded by love. And she said to me, do you not think they know that? And I said, yeah. Yeah, I think they do, but I just wanna make sure. I just wanna make sure that it’s never forgotten how much they’re loved. It’s really weird actually, how most of these three, I’m starting to analyze myself now because all these three questions have reverted back to my kids.
CW: Yeah.
SH: Oh, interesting.
DC: It is. I’m gonna have to look at that because I’m not totally happy with that.
CW: Oh, okay.
SH: There’s a whole other conversation that we could have right there.
DC: Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Maybe I need some more counseling.
SH: Oh gosh.
CW: I’m pretty sure we all do, Deb.
SH: Pretty sure. Yeah. We’re gonna keep the counselors in business.
Interlude
CW: All right. Well, we have Darice Austin with us. We’re so glad you’ve come back to the podcast, Darice. Thank you.
DA: You’re welcome. I’m excited to be here.
CW: Well, I have my cards here for memories. Choose one, two, or three.
DA: Ooh, let’s go with two.
CW: What do you admire about your teenage Mormon self?
DA: Well, I feel like for my teenage Mormon self, gosh, I had a lot to learn. I had so much to learn.
CW: We all did.
DA: You know, one thing that I have always had a passion for and probably could have done it more and still could do more is service. I remember as a teenager giving up my Christmas morning and going down to Tijuana, which was not far from where I lived in San Diego, to pass out gifts. And it was so meaningful to me, but I just, I always loved serving. And so, and that’s something that’s been - I’ve done a lot of church public affairs and a lot of Just Serve and other things. That’s just always been something that I have had. It just really resonates with my soul.
And so, that probably comes across sounding braggy-ish, but I just have a real testimony of service. And so, I didn’t have a lot of things pushing me outside of my comfort zone. I certainly did not have a lot of opportunity to see differences. I grew up with a lot of privilege, but in those opportunities that came in across my path when I was able to serve and really see people in different situations, it was really good for me. And so I guess I am glad for when I took those opportunities as a selfish teenager.
SH: Can I ask you a follow-up question, Darice?
CW: Dang it. I was going to.
Laughter
DA: Please.
SH: Well, maybe we both can, but I wanna know, as a teenager - there are some teenagers who are real self-starters and show a lot of initiative in these things, but I have to think at some point in your young life, the adults around you set you up for that emphasis. So, who took you to Tijuana? Who organized it? Were your parents, did your parents have a strong service bent?
DA: It’s funny. It was someone connected through church. Like, someone I knew through church that did this, but my parents had no say in it. All my siblings were home. They were going about Christmas without me.
CW: What?
SH: Really?
DA: I was just gone for the day. And I don’t know what possessed me. I’m like, yeah, that actually sounds really cool. And I don’t even remember if I was in high school, I might have been junior high. And I just plopped in the car with no one my age as we drove across the border and back.
And so, it’s kind of a random thing, but I remember that being significant. And then when my husband and I were first married, we were called to serve in a Spanish branch. And that was, again, a really awesome opportunity to see cultural differences, even at church, and just recognize my privilege and also just beauty of different ways of seeing the world. And then when we moved a year later to Baltimore, we were called to serve in the inner city. So I just have had this - some good opportunities to learn from others in situations that were so very different from my own. But I don’t know. And that’s not to suggest that my parents weren’t generous and giving, it just wasn’t something that they were like, we’d like us all to go do these things. You know, that was just, it was my initiative. I don’t know what got into -
SH: It really came from inside you,
DA: I guess so.
SH: Amazing. I admire you also, just so you know.
CW: I love that.
SH: I admire your teenage self.
CW: Yes. I was just gonna say, I admire Darice teenager, too.
DA: To be fair, there was so much not to admire about me.
CW: Wow.
DA: But that one [00:40:00] time, that one Christmas.
SH: That’s a different question, Darice. We didn’t ask you that question.
DA: I guess so. I guess so.
DA: Please don’t.
CW: Oh, perfect. Perfect. All right.
SH: All right. Darice also said she would be okay with a question from the insights category. So, Darice, would you like question one, two, or three?
DA: I’m gonna go with three.
SH: Oh, Darice, is there anything you feel like you’re constantly chasing as an LDS woman?
DA: Oh, my own tail. Yeah. Yeah, there’s a lot, but I, these are gonna sound so generic, but I think I’m always, if this is the spirit of the question or what it was intended, I’m always chasing after equality. Representation. I had the opportunity to be a stake Relief Society president. And in doing so I was told by someone, why do you talk so much in stake council? If you would just be quiet, we could get through the meeting faster. And I said, I gotcha. I understand. Those are long, early morning meetings. I’m one of three women sitting in a room full of men. And I represent nearly half, if not more, of the population in the stake. And so I think their concerns are to be represented as much as possible. I’m not taking up half the time, but I’m representing half the people.
And so, I petitioned for us to be on the stand. I uninvited the men to our women’s conferences. I wanted space for women by women and tried to make it as much about us through our own lens, rather than through a man’s lens for our benefit. Our first women’s conference or Relief Society conference, we invited a woman from the Relief Society general board or council. What do they call it now? Anyway, she came and spoke about women’s priesthood power. And I conducted. Of course the men were still there to preside ‘cause heaven forbid.
And she wore pants. And I wore pants. And women thought that was significant. And so I guess some of these things may feel so insignificant or nitpicky to some. But I heard from people who were just kind of clinging to the edge, trying to hold on and said, that was significant to me. And so, that’s something I feel like I’m constantly chasing now - not in that calling. I still do that through my girls. They kind of roll my eyes like, oh my mom, the feminist, here we go. Because they live in the point where a lot of things feel equal to them and good for them.
SH: Right.
DA: They’ll encounter it soon enough. But yeah, that’s something that I chase through them and on their behalf.
The other thing is my involvement with LGBTQ equality and inclusion and that feels like we aren’t even making one step forward and taking two steps back in the church.
CW: Correct.
DA: And it’s a lot of work and it’s a constant chase uphill with weights around my ankles.
CW: So when you explained to that person why you speak up in stake council, did they see your point? I’m assuming this was a man that said this to you.
DA: Well, I was very succinct in my feedback because he wasn’t interested in it. So I just said, you know, I’ve got, I represent a lot of women and I’d like to share their perspectives and the things that they are facing.
SH: This story just makes me think of, I think it was Elder Ballard who has the famous thing about we need women’s voices - speak up in the meetings, but don’t talk too much, right?
CW: Don’t talk too much, and get us back on track.
SH: And don’t be shrill. And get us back on track. Don’t be too loud. Yes.
DA: Yeah. We just need you to keep us on track.
SH: Right, right. Yeah. So I mean, in that gentleman’s defense he is -
CW: He learned from the top.
SW: Yeah, it came from the top.
CW: Right. Ah, alright.
SH: That’s no defense, by the way.
Laughter
DA: Oh, yes. But it explains they are not getting their cues to anything to contradict those opinions.
CW: Exactly
SH: Exactly. Right.
CW: Alright, Darice, last question. Beliefs one, two, or three.
DA: Let’s go with one.
CW: How has grief shaped your life?
DA: Oh. I am going to need to knock on wood while I say this, but I haven’t suffered, yet, much loss in terms of a loved one passing. But I have a trans daughter, and the transitioning of a child does come with grief. It also comes with joy. [00:45:00] And that does not suggest I don’t fully support my child, that I don’t fully affirm her.
But I don’t have the little guy that I raised in the same sense. And so I have had to be - and it’s a grief that people say no one’s bringing you a casserole for. So it’s a silent one. And it’s a processing that I’m so careful about because I never want it to sound like I am regretful about who she has become.
CW: Yeah. It’s tricky.
DA: But as a mom. I recognize and on behalf of other trans parents who have gone through this, I feel it a disservice if I don’t say there is often grief that comes with a child transitioning.
CW: Can I ask a follow-up? And that is, what’s your number one advice, then, to parents who have a child transitioning? What’s the number one thing you would say to them about this grief that they are feeling?
DA: Yeah. You know, I so am hesitant to be overly prescriptive.
CW: Sure.
DA: I’m happy to share my experience - and that is to give myself permission to react and respond in my heart to things that pull at my heartstrings. For example, when my kids were younger, I took pride in curating finding just the right Christmas ornament for them and to put in their stocking or whatever. And often it would have - something would be personalized or their name would be written on it, whatever. These were lean years while my husband was in medical training. So these were significant in many ways, especially ‘cause they were an investment for me. And I just wanted them to have this curated collection of ornaments when they moved out of the house.
So, my trans daughter has gone through, you know, I have all her keepsakes and stuff, and I’m like, ready to go through this? You are out of the house now. And all those personalized things were set aside ‘cause it’s her dead name. And oh, that was hard because it represented a lot, but it was about me. It was really about my sacrifice and my thoughtfulness and my things. She wasn’t discarding my thoughtfulness and my sacrifice.
CW: Sure.
SH: Right. Right.
DA: And so I allowed myself to be sad about those things. Not making her feel guilty or shame or anything. It was all privately done.
And then occasionally I do still come across - I didn’t throw those all out, and sometimes I do still come across things that are a reminder of this little one I had. And I still love the person that she is, but I still give space for the pulls on my heartstrings when I come across those things. Or a photo pops up and I’m like, oh, I wasn’t prepared for that. There are little reminders and it’s okay to go, I miss that little guy sometimes. But I also couldn’t be more thrilled to love and celebrate my daughter. So I don’t know if that’s helpful, but that’s where I just leave space for that and I’m not gonna feel bad about those heartstring pulls.
SH: Right. Right. Can I ask you one last thing about that?
DA: Sure.
SH: I’m really interested to know how it is for you processing that in your church life. Because I’m guessing - okay, as a mother, when my daughters left the church, I felt very little space to do any kind of grieving around that with other members of the church. Or publicly in church. And I’m imagining that here, I hear you describing something that’s infinitely more complicated than that. But I’m guessing there hasn’t been a lot of space for you to hold that with other members, maybe.
DA: Yeah. What’s beautiful is that friendships with members don’t have to - conversations aren’t always taking place in congregations, right? So we have wonderful members of our ward who have just stepped in with so much love and support and love of my child, which has, they’ll never know the depth at which that just resonates and is so supporting.
And my child actually stepped away before transitioning, and that was hard too. It came with its own set of grief because here I’m watching all the milestones that she would have otherwise been - the farewells of all her peers. The homecomings of all her peers. All of that. And for a while that was hard. Then, in 2024, the church released this transgender Guiding Principles, which is a hyperlink under the transgender section of the handbook. So if you’re not familiar with it, because it was kind of just slid in there -
SH: Stuck it in there.
DA: Yep. And can easily be removed. Like, oh, it’s just a [00:50:00] hyperlink. One delete and it’s not there anymore. If you aren’t familiar with it, I encourage you to go read it, but brace yourself because it’s pretty demonizing of this marginalized group. I have yet to find a single case of a trans person doing anything inappropriate to anyone, let alone a minor in a church building.
But they are definitely - the fact that they are barred from working with youth and children gives the implication that they are a danger. That they can’t use a bathroom when occupied by others without a pre-approved guard, a sentinel sitting out front to guard the empty bathroom except for this trans person in there.
We haven’t changed any of our practices with bishops meeting behind closed windowless doors with 11 year olds asking about their sex practices. But this group that we have no track record of - we can point to many, sadly, abuse cases involving church leadership. But all this to say, I don’t grieve my child not being at church now.
That I wouldn’t wish her back at this point. Having a relationship with God, wonderful. Walking with Christ? Yes, please. Coming into an LDS church building and being subjected to what our trans and non-binary gender fluid, gender expansive members are being asked to do? No way.
SH: Right.
DA: So, I don’t know if that answers your question directly, but it was a gradual process and thanks to the church’s own policies, it has made it much easier for me to not wish her back.
CW: Wow. We will link to that statement if people don’t know what you’re talking about so that they can read that hyperlink. But anyway, Darice. Thank you so much. Thank you for chatting with us.
SH: Thank you, Darice.
DA: Thank you.
Interlude
CW: Alright, Susan. Well, we could just end our conversation with those three amazing conversations, but why don’t we chew on them just a little bit more than we did with our guests? How’s that?
SH: Sounds good.
CW: So our first conversation with Aubrey Chavez. Since we recorded this with her, I have not stopped thinking about that Richard Rohr quote that she shared from Falling Upward.
And I actually had you look it up ‘cause you have the Kindle edition. So I’m like, Susan go do a word search on this and here’s the exact quote: “Spiritually speaking, there are no dead ends. God will use this too, somehow, and draw all of us toward the great life.”
SH: I was really happy to see when I looked that quote up when I did the search on - I searched “dead ends” in Falling Upward. And I was very happy to see that I actually had that quote underlined. So, I’m not a total moron, I just don’t remember great things. I’m so glad when someone comes along and repeats them to me later so I can go back and see, yeah, I already heard that. Maybe it’ll stick this time.
CW: Well, we’ve had two conversations with Aubrey now. She’s been on our podcast twice. Actually, all of these guests that we had on today, we did Embracing Your Journey episodes with all three of them. But in those two conversations we’ve had with Aubrey, I’ve kind of come away with thinking that’s Aubrey’s spiritual superpower - is that I think she really believes that, Susan, that there are no dead ends. That God really can take all the garbage that we go through and somehow draw us toward the good life, as Richard Rohr says.
SH: Yeah, I think she’s living it. And one of the things, there aren’t that many things that really stick with me as we’ve just proven, but one of the things that Aubrey said in our journey episode with her that really has stuck with me and changed the way that I think about some things is that advice to follow your spiritual energy.
CW: Yeah.
SH: And I feel like she lives it.
CW: I think she really does.
SH: And I think that’s what helps her do an end run. She does a spiritual end run around dead ends.
CW: What I hear from Aubrey often, too, is just to trust the process.
SH: Yeah.
CW: And I think you’re good at that too, Susan. I mean, I’m gonna quote you - you’ve said before, “God uses drops of water to carve canyons.”
SH: Mmmhmmm.
CW: I think you believe that. I think Aubrey believes that, and I’m trying really hard to believe that. I’m trying to trust the process.
SH: It didn’t come that naturally to me, really, in my spiritual life to think of it as a process. I don’t know what it was about growing up in the church that made me think that a spiritual life was supposed to sort of be a finished product or a - I was already supposed to be pretty perfect, right?
CW: Right.
SH: I was already supposed to be living the dream in lots of ways. And where I did learn this though, was in my life as a maker and in my life as a working artist. I very much had to learn to trust the process. And that felt natural to me, and the process felt trustworthy to me.
I’m a process artist. Anyone who’s ever heard me talk about art, that’s what I talk about. It’s as much [00:55:00] about engaging in the process as it is about the product, maybe even more. And so, making the leap from knowing what that means in my hands to knowing what that means in my soul and in my life generally is work I’m still very much engaged in. But knowing what it meant for my hands gave me a place to start, anyway.
And I feel like Aubrey has really given me a useful tool in some of the things that she said to help me along in the process of learning to trust the process.
CW: Yeah, I think so. I really like that she’s talked with us both times about the darkness and I came away from that thinking that maybe when it’s darkest, I can just bring it down to the ground level like Aubrey did. I think she used the phrase like, I am a well fed mammal. Right? I have food and I have shelter, and -
SH: And it’s enough.
CW: And it’s enough. And I just think, okay, so trusting the process for me, speaking for myself, would be in those moments when it feels like everything has burnt down, whatever the topic would be, whether it’s spirituality or a relationship or something - can I just go down to the basics like Aubrey did and say something like that. Like, I’m well fed, I’m taken care of, and today that’s enough.
SH: That’s enough.
CW: And tomorrow is a different story.
Alright, Miss Debbie Squires Coleman. I really do feel badly that we made Debbie say when we - ‘cause we told her, oh, this is gonna be fun. And she’s like, this is not fun.
Laughter
But what I really want to have a quick convo with you about is the last question we asked her, which was, are you comfortable being forgotten? Or something like that. And I really like that Debbie took it down two avenues. And one of them was, well, as a Mormon woman who’s an older woman in the church she’s pretty much been forgotten.
SH: Yeah. That’s a real thing.
CW: That’s a real thing. And so she’s taken her talents elsewhere using them in the government. So good for her. But it was the second part about being forgotten forgotten. Like after we die. And it’s actually something I have been thinking a lot about. I read the book and I know you’ve read Terry Tempest Williams’ book Erosion: Essays of Undoing. And right off on the very first page, she tells this story about a friend who came to visit her. Her friend lived in Manhattan and Terry Tempest Williams lives in the, I believe she lives in a pretty rural area of southern Utah now.
SH: Yes.
CW: And her friend was supposed to stay with her for a few days, but after the first night, she packed her bags and left.
And the friend asked her, looking at these desert, rural surroundings, aren’t you afraid of being forgotten? And she said and so the quote goes on, “what I wanted to say to her but didn’t was, I hope so.” That’s the part, Susan, that made me fall off my chair because I never expected someone to be like, I totally hope I’m forgotten. ‘Cause I was like, what? This is madness. She goes on to say, “my delight in being forgotten is rooted in the belief that I don’t matter in the larger scheme of things, only that I tried my best to be a good human. Failing repeatedly, but trying again with the soul settling knowledge that my body will return to the desert.”
Now I’m not saying I have adopted her reasonings for needing to be forgotten, but it’s made me ask myself a lot lately. In fact, I think for one of our essays for Say More when it was my turn to write, I decided I was going to write about being forgotten, but I haven’t chewed on it enough yet, so I could only get two or three sentences in before I was like, nope, too soon.
SH: Oh, wow. Okay.
CW: Yeah.
SH: So we can look forward to this essay in the future?
CW: Well, I’m a slow learner as we’ve already established, so it might need to be a few more years. I don’t know, since I’ve read the book two years ago, so I might need a few more. But I’m just really glad that question popped up and that Debbie’s answer was, and I quote - she was talking about her grandchildren and she said to a therapist, “I want them to know they’re loved.”
SH: Right.
CW: Because she said, I don’t care if I’m forgotten, but she just couldn’t bear the idea of her grandkids not knowing that she loved them.
SH: I thought that was so gorgeous and I have to be honest, I would never have connected those dots, really.
CW: Which dots?
SH: In that question.
CW: Oh, okay.
SH: That being forgotten, that I guess it wouldn’t have occurred to me that if I didn’t want to be forgotten by people, it would be because I wanted them to know how much I loved them. [01:00:00] I don’t know why that was a very specific connection that I hadn’t made.
And of course, as soon as she said it, I was like, aha, yes, of course. That’s it. That’s what’s behind that feeling of really wanting connection with my grandkids, with the very people who are probably, I’m gonna be pretty forgettable to, in some ways. I, of course, was very connected to my grandparents, and I still am, but they died when I was pretty young.
There’s just not that much you can really do about that as a grandparent. But the idea that the important part about it is the love that you leave in your wake on this earth. I absolutely love that idea. So I have to thank Debbie for that.
CW: Yeah, I totally agree. And like you said, duh, of course.
SH: Yeah. Duh.
CW: That’s what it comes down to.
SH: Right.
CW: There is going to be someone out there who said it better, did it better, all of it better.
SH: Always.
CW: But there may not be someone who loves the people around me, a sister, a brother, a child, a grandchild, whoever, who loves them quite the way that I could have.
SH: Right.
CW: And I did, hopefully.
SH: And did, yeah. It was interesting to me that the therapist said, “Don’t you think they know that?” Because I feel like in a way that sort of missed the point, in a way. Yes, I think that Debbie knows that they know that, but I can see why it’s perfectly natural and perfectly okay for her concern to be that she gives them as much love as she can every day that she is with them on this earth. I feel like that is not a misplaced desire, I guess. Not a misplaced goal. That’s the goal. Really beautiful.
CW: Really beautiful. Alright, for Ms. Darice, she is the one why we put in our title “chasing equality.” Because we asked her the question, what are you constantly chasing? Or something like that. And she said equality. And so we had a good conversation about that, her advocacy with LGBTQ. But also the part I wanted to focus on was when she was stake Relief Society president, and she’s in a stake council meeting and some dorky dude afterwards says to her, why do you talk so much in these meetings?
And her answer to him was, I’m not taking up half the time, but I am representing half the people.
SH: Holy envy for Darice. Because would I ever have that good an answer just roll off my tongue in that situation? I don’t think I would. That answer was so perfect. It was short. It wasn’t defensive. It was matter of fact. It was exactly the right response.
CW: It was.
SH: And he’d probably never thought of it. Honestly, she was educating that man in real time.
CW: She absolutely was. Because if you think about all the people that would be in a ward council or a stake council, they are there representing, usually, a specific group of people. Right?
SH: Right.
CW: The Primary. The Young Women’s. The Young Men’s. But for a Relief Society president, she is representing 50% plus.
SH: Half the stake.
CW: So good for her for speaking truth to power because, oh my gosh, I just don’t even think, sometimes, men think about how little of a voice we have. That when we actually get in rooms where decisions are made - in the room where it happens - that we need to take advantage of that time and get all the other mostly men in the room to understand what the needs are of that particular group of people. In this case, 50% plus, most likely, of women.
SH: Well, here’s what I know today as a result of having these conversations.
CW: Okay?
SH: I know that every single woman who listens to At Last She Said It has something to teach me.
CW: Hands down.
SH: Because I learned from every single one of these.
CW: Yeah.
SH: So can’t wait to have more of these conversations, Cynthia.
CW: Can’t wait. Can’t wait. Thank you, Susan.
SH: Thanks.
Voicemail 1: Hi Susan and Cynthia. This is Rebecca. This is probably my seventh time rerecording this and I hope this one works out. But I am 17 right now and I’ve been listening to your podcast since I was 14 and I just listened to your podcast. Oh, I forget which one it was, but I wanted to tell you guys something that has happened, not exactly recently, but it’s happened in the last two or three years.
But it’s that we were during testimony meeting - my family isn’t Mormon anymore, we’re Episcopal - but there’s about two years ago in testimony meeting, this guy gets up very old [01:05:00] and he says, oh, I don’t believe in saying believe anymore or I don’t - I don’t think we should say believe anymore.
We need to know. And me, I was like - that was five years ago. Dang it. I was like 12 at the time. 13. Somewhere around there. I was like, okay, so I got up there and I said, I know, and it didn’t feel right and it was like, it’s really interesting that people are still saying that I know when you can’t know stuff like that.
The only thing I know for sure is that God is real and that’s about it and I’m really glad to know that it’s okay to just ask the questions. So thanks y’all. Bye.
Voicemail 2: Hello, Cynthia and Susan. This is Nicole. I’m becoming increasingly suspicious of church leaders who say that we love women. At first, these messages did make me feel seen and valued, but over time they feel more like placating platitudes because the changes to bring the institution towards greater equality are small and slow.
In contrast, I can never recall hearing someone declare, we love men on behalf of the church. And why is that? Because they don’t need to say that. It’s demonstrated by the patriarchal structure and the cultural conditioning. Men are elevated from the age of 11 to positions of respect and value in the church.
Almost every example of spiritual and physical leadership is male. We even have a song Praise to the Man, all while women have a much more balanced representation in scripture of being good and evil compared to the men. So I wonder more and more, do we love women? Who’s we? Is it just the men in charge?
And what would loving women as they love themselves as Christ has taught us actually look like?
Outtakes
SH: No, the experience I have is where people come up to me at our events all the time and say, I’m sorry this is so horrible for you. I can see that this is just awful. And I think I’m just trying to be normal. Don’t, can I just look normal?
CW: Yeah. They need to quit saying that to you.
SH: Oh, or I need to quit looking like this. I don’t know which it is.
But you started to say something and then you say -
CW: I already forgot what it was.
SH: All right.
CW: I forget everything these days.
Spiritual speak. Oops. Already.
All right. Good enough?
SH: Perfect. Okay.
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