Episode 243 (Transcript): Embracing Your Journey | A Conversation with Whitney Call
Episode Transcript
Many thanks to listener Rachel Cousin for her work in transcribing this episode!
This episode can be found on any podcast app or can be listened to here on our website as well. All the notes and resources we cited in the episode are found at this link as well:
WC: Our bodies were very objectified. Being on a church show that – ‘cause honestly we were the first of our kind on BYU TV. It was Conference and the quilting show and scripture round table until we came on. That’s really what it was, you know? And then they were actually starting to do more entertainment and it’s been through different variations, but imagine being the battering ram for all of Mormon culture. It was very weird.
SH: Hello, I’m Susan Hinkley.
CW: And I am Cynthia Winward.
SH: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things and the title of today’s episode is Embracing Your Journey, A Conversation with Whitney Call.
Hello Whitney.
WC: Hello. Thanks for having me here. I’m so excited.
CW: Welcome.
SH: We’re so excited to have you.
I’m pretty sure that you might need no introduction for many of our listeners, but in case there’s anyone who’s been living under a rock, would you mind just giving us a really brief introduction before we jump into the meat of the conversation? Just something to help our listeners know a little bit more about you.
WC: Yeah. I am a writer and comedian. I worked for nine seasons as a writer and actor on Studio C, which was a sketch comedy show. And yeah, I was there for six years. We started our little comedy troupe from college. We started the show at BYU TV. And then in 2018, a bunch of us left ‘cause we wanted to make more things and we started JK Studios.
And yeah, most of the time I am trying to – actually, my everyday looks very boring. I’m mostly just writing things that no one will see, or it lasts for two minutes and then it’s done, ‘cause that’s what sketch is. But yeah screenplay writing, story writing. I love storytelling and I guess sometimes I have to act it out in order to get it out there.
[laughter]
SH: Oh that’s great. That’s a great introduction and I have a feeling this is gonna be an entertaining conversation.
WC: I hope so.
CW: Yes, please.
SH: We’re thrilled to have you here. I think Cynthia’s gonna take us through the discussion today, so let’s get to it.
CW: Let’s just go ahead and jump in a little bit with our first question, how it started. Give us a quick snapshot or memorable experiences that shaped your LDS life.
WC: Yeah. So I was born in Portland, Oregon, and I think that really shaped my life growing up, ‘cause Portland, it was not where my parents wanted to live, but, for work purposes, that’s kind of where I grew up. And so it was a really interesting kind of duality dissonance that was going on in my childhood, where I had kind of this bubble of a home that my parents were trying to make for us by being examples. I grew up in the church, and yet also on the outside you had culturally what almost feels like the opposite of church experience.
I had teachers who would have stickers on their water bottles ‘cause they weren’t allowed to talk about their politics, but it’d be like Al Gore stickers. And then I’d go home and my parents would talk about like, Al Gore’s just trying to… and you know, it was this very – I recognized pretty quickly on that most of the people outside my home felt very different from the people inside my home.
But we had the quote unquote truth, but also my parents were kind of just dissonance holders too. I mean, we were a very faithful family, but we were also super crass. We made all sorts of jokes about sex and we watched The Simpsons every Sunday together. That was a family activity.
SH: That was family home evening for me and my children.
[laughter]
WC: Was it?
SH: Yes.
WC: It’s so fun.
CW: How did I not know that?
SH: I mean, I guess it depends on the goal of family home evening, so, you know.
WC: Totally.
SH: But anyway, it worked for our family.
WC: Yeah, it gathered us together. I mean, honestly, what a lot of people say Studio C did for their family, Simpsons did for my family. That was where we all gathered, that was – so it just was kind of this world of dissonance where we believed in something so strongly and we kind of made lightness of a lot of things too. That was kind of our family culture. We were a little squidgy around the edges, but man, the nugget was real stuck, real true.
And I feel like that was probably me, too. I was a very – I really wanted to be unique. I’m a Gemini sun and moon, so if you get anything from that. I, there’s just, I think I just really wanted to be unique, stand out. I wanted to be an actress from a super young age. And so I dyed my hair all sorts of colors when I was in high school. And I wanted to shave my head, which I think my parents honestly were more worried that I was turning [00:05:00] liberal than that I was doing drugs. So they were very like, don’t shave your head. Don’t. That’s gonna be like Sinead O’Connor.
And anyway, things like that. But then also I got my patriarchal blessing when I was, I think I was 12.
SH: Wow.
WC: It was right when I could, I wanted to get it so badly.
SH: Wow.
WC: And I wanted to get my endowments as soon as I could.
CW: Really?
WC: And I had to talk to my stake president to be like, hey, I’m not getting married and I’m not serving a mission, but I really want this. Can I do the – I think I just always, I wanted to be super rooted and I wanted to just delight in spiritual things. I’ve always loved spirituality. And so I think having that sort of environment growing up with – a lot of people would come to school and be like, hey, so do you practice polygamy anymore? I’d be like, no. And they’re like, well, in church we learned about Doctrine and Covenants 132. And I was like, what? I’d have these people who studied my religion at their church.
CW: Yep. Same.
SH: Right.
WC: And so I grew up very much wanting to be like, look, I’m not stupid. I know what my church looks like to you, and I still choose it because I am a grown ass woman who knows what I want.
And so I think that’s always been a part of me where it’s like, I wanna choose this because I want it. While also being a little bit anxious and having some scrupulosity. There was always that, there was always both going on.
[laughter]
SH: Okay. But it was fun scrupulosity, right?
WC: It was fun scrupulosity, you know.
CW: What, Susan, what?
WC: It was the fun kind. Yeah, no, you know what though? You know what our family culture was so focused on? ‘Cause it was very church centered, but mostly it was marriage centered. It was –
CW: Oh, really?
WC: Yes. My mom got married when she was just barely 20 and one of my sisters got married when she was 19 and the other one got married when she was 18. And so when I was 23, you can bet that my family was like, shoot, there might not be any hope for Whitney.
SH: Wow.
WC: I think they thought I was gay for a while because Mallory and I, we grew up together. She’s in Studio – she was in Studio C with me and we were both in Portland together. And I think, honestly, my mom will never admit this, but I think she thought, are she and Mal gay? Is that what’s going on here? Is that why she’s not going on as many dates? I was like, no, mom, it’s ‘cause everyone here is kind of a loser, and I don’t wanna date them. But at the same time that dissonance of – I remember having a vision board when I was 12 and after my oldest sister got married, I was like, okay, so how could I have a wedding where I can save money and still make it look beautiful?
And my mom was like, that’s great to start planning right now. Let’s plan together.
CW: Oh my goodness.
WC: So getting to BYU, it was very much like, okay, where is he? Where is the man? Who’s the one that’s finally gonna see me for what I’m worth? Because all those guys in high school just were too immature for me.
But putting that, pairing that with someone who’s extreme feminist, I mean, I studied women’s studies at BYU and English –
CW: Oh really?
WC: – and, yeah, that, that was my minor. And so I – ‘cause they didn’t have it as a major, but –
CW: I knew they had it as a minor. Yes.
SH: That was my next question.
WC: They had it as a minor, actually, yeah.
CW: Just a minor. Not a major.
WC: Just a minor, not a major. So I took what I could get.
CW: That says so much.
WC: You know, it’s, I guess I didn’t – it was 2007, so I don’t even think that was on my mind as much. It was pre Me Too. So it’s wow, a church school even has classes in women’s studies?
CW: Good point.
WC: How amazing! But yeah, it was this very weird dichotomy of I want all of these equal rights for women. I want the pay gap to be diminished. We haven’t even talked about mutilation of women in other countries and bride kidnappings and I’m gonna write about this, and, I hope this guy thinks that I’m not too much.
[laughter]
CW: Right? This all sounds so familiar.
WC: Does it? It’s a weird mind game!
CW: It really is a weird mind game. Yeah. The dissonance, right? The dissonance of it all, it’s, yeah. I used to say I was a societal feminist before I became a church feminist. What does that even mean?
WC: Oh, a hundred percent.
CW: That’s the most ridiculous thing.
WC: Isn’t that? Isn’t it? It is. You know, I just think there – honestly, I know why I have some of the anxieties that I had growing up. I know what tools I was given. I’ve done enough work on myself to see my blind spots. Are they fixed? No, obviously not. But I can see, okay, I clearly grew up in a family where my parents were so scared of me just wandering into a very angry feminist space.
And so while they supported me, even, especially my dad, he loved that I was so into Susan B. Anthony, Elizabeth Cady Stanton. I was obsessed [00:10:00] with Annie Oakley for a long time when I was a kid. And he would get us videos from the library. And he got me a telescope when I was a kid ‘cause I was – I wanted to be an astronomer. They pooled their limited resources together one Christmas and that was the coolest present I ever got. And that was really supportive for them, from them. But, at the same time, when I was looking into colleges, they were like, well, you’re not gonna find any Mormons to marry if you go to NYU and you’re not gonna be able to stay home and raise your family if you are –
You know, I wanted to be a psychologist. I wanted to be an astronomer. I wanted to be a – even being an actress, they were like, well, this is fun that you’re doing this at college for a little bit, when I was in Divine Comedy. They were like, this is fun that you’re having fun, but we’re so glad you’re studying to be a writer ‘cause you can do that at home. And it was like okay, okay. You know, and I always resisted that idea. I always resisted that I was gonna stay at home. And when Steven and I met, that was one of the things I told him when we got serious was, okay I don’t think I’m ever gonna be a stay at home parent ‘cause I think I’ll be a terrible mom if I do that. And he was like, okay, if it comes down to it, I can be the stay at home dad. And then we both had kids and realized neither of us wanted to be the stay at home parent.
[laughter]
WC: So we’ve made it work. We’ve made it work.
SH: That’s one of my favorite lines that’s ever been delivered on our podcast. Thank you for that.
CW: I mean, let’s be honest, if more of us were honest, we would probably, without the conditioning, all have looked at our spouses and said, not me. You, right? You’re staying home. Nope?
SH: Right. Yep.
WC: Well, I mean, the pandemic really leveled both of us, right? So now we’re work from home parents. That’s what we are. We’re work from home parents.
CW: Okay..
SH: Okay.
WC: Which is the best of both worlds, ‘cause we get to do what we want and we get to spend a lot of time with our kids. But man, I honestly don’t know how you ladies do it with the – with raising kids and not really having a tag team partner. ‘Cause that’s, I’m very privileged. That’s definitely one of my privileges. I have a tag team partner.
CW: Keep going, Whitney. I don’t know if I have any questions. This is fantastic. I just need a bucket of popcorn, actually. This is great.
[laughter]
WC: I get a lot of people who wanna know kind of like how Studio C started and all of that stuff. We were all doing our Divine Comedy thing and we went to BYU TV and said, hey, we have a really fun show. We write it and perform it so you can consolidate those fees, ‘cause we’re everything. And they said no. And so then in 2012 we asked again, and they had a new director of content, and they said yes. And so we got started there. And around that time, that’s when Steven, he joined our Divine Comedy group.
It was not love at first sight. In fact, I told everyone like, we’re not bringing people into our group because we have a crush on them. We’re bringing them because they’re funny. And because we want them to do well. But yeah, about three months into him being in the group, it started sort of being flirty. We kind of dated, but he didn’t really know if he wanted to date anyone yet. And so we broke up. He likes to say to people I broke up with him on Valentine’s Day, but I only did that because he – I could tell he didn’t want to date me. And so I felt weird having a Valentine’s with him. I did keep the treats he gave me and stuff, because, of course. And then the short of it –
[laughter]
SH: Well, you’re not dumb.
WC: I’m not dumb, right?
No, the short of it is that, yeah, eight months and three girls later he realized he did want to date me. I was not sitting around, though. I was actually really trying hard to go on lots of dates then. And it was really hard. I was in Divine Comedy at the time, and I honestly think a lot of the men did not want to date women who were funnier than them.
CW: I totally believe that.
SH: Oh, oh yeah.
WC: Right? I know it sounds defensive, but I would honestly have these experiences where I’d be really clicking with someone and then we’d hang out in a group and I can’t really keep my mouth shut when I’m in a group. I like to have fun, but I like to play with people. I’m like, well, you can joke too. We’re all having fun together. And then it was almost to a T after those kinds of group hangouts, they would start backing off.
And so I don’t know if it just was they had a bruised ego, or if it was genuinely like, I don’t wanna be with someone who takes up more space than me, or what, but it sure helped to date a comedian, ‘cause then both of us felt pretty secure, I think. I don’t know. All comedians, I think we’re pretty insecure, so –
[laughter]
WC: We just want people to like us. I don’t know.
SH: Pretty sure that’s where it comes from, actually.
WC: That’s where it comes from. So yeah, we were both in – we filmed our first season of Studio C together, and then, he, after our wrap party on our last night of filming, Steven was like, hey, I don’t want this night to end. Let’s go to the top of this mountain. So, then we kissed again. But I was like, what are you doing? I’ve been trying to move [00:15:00] on and I’ve genuinely gotten to a place where I’m okay if we don’t do this. And he was like, well, I really like you. And I was like, okay, well, then you better be all in ‘cause I’m not doing this again.
And I think honestly that was a good thing for me, ‘cause most of the men I dated up to that point, I was so concerned with losing them, being rejected, all of these things –. I mean honestly, it’s the rewiring right? But that messaging for me was real deep of I’m not valuable unless someone values me, I think was a big message for me, in my childhood, whether or not my parents meant to instill that in me or not. That was definitely something I followed to a T for a long time. So we dated, we got engaged, we got married, we kept doing the show. And, yeah, things honestly were pretty simple. I mean, I don’t know, as simple as marriage and having kids can be. We had babies while we were doing Studio C, so you’ll see some seasons where I am – I look quite different from other seasons just based on what my body was doing at the time. I kind of got into the flow of – I mean BYU TV, they’re very – the church has a very interesting maternity leave thing, which is that it doesn’t really exist.
CW: Oh, that’s one word to say, Whitney. Interesting?
[laughter]
WC: It’s very interesting. I had technically four weeks of unpaid leave, but I would get back to work in two weeks. Otherwise it was like, you don’t get as many parts, you don’t get to work.
SH: Right.
WC: So I’d be writing sketches while I had my postpartum girdle and all my stitches and stuff. But you know what, I honestly, I put the blame on BYU TV. I wanted to do it. I wanted something that took my mind off of the 36 hour days that I was living with newborns and stuff.
So yeah, I would say that was a lot of my first half of life experience, was kind of that – there’s things that don’t quite line up together, but I’m doing my best and I’m with someone who finally, who chose me, who picked me as their person, and I have a family and I’m doing what I’m supposed to do. There’s a lot of nuance already in there. I’ve never felt super attached to things like tattoos or rated R movies. These are all things that I kind of, through college was like, eh, I feel like God and I are good. I think honestly, I felt like God had me, did I have me? That was probably the biggest first half of life mentality was – I don’t know that I had my back very much. Unless other people told me that they had my back. There was a lot of comment reading in those early Studio C days and you learn very quickly not to read the comments.
[laughter]
SH: Yes. Ask us how we know.
WC: Especially as a female. Tons of people saying, hey, let’s rank the girls in order of hotness, or –
CW: Of course they do.
WC: Or people being like, ugh, I could see the shadow of your cleavage in this dress and my brother watches this show. How dare you. He’s going on a mission.
CW: Oh my gosh.
SH: Oh.
WC: And it’s like, I’m sorry. I’ve got pretty big boobs and the dress is gonna fit me differently. Or it just was – our bodies were very objectified. Being on a church show that – ‘cause honestly we were the first of our kind on BYU TV. It was Conference and the quilting show and scripture round table until we came on.
SH: Wow
WC: That’s really what it was, you know? And then they were actually starting to do more entertainment and it’s been through different variations, but imagine being the battering ram for all of Mormon culture.
It was very weird having people who didn’t watch any TV unless it was BYU TV. And a lot of those people were our audience. I remember this one time we were all going to see a movie. We were going to see American Sniper. And someone stopped us at the theater and they wanted to talk to us and take a picture with their daughter.
And then they were like, “Hey, so what are you going to see?”
CW: Uh oh.
WC: And we all kind of froze ‘cause it’s rated R. And then one of our friends who was with us, she’s so blunt, she was like, we’re seeing American Sniper. And the woman just sort of looked at all of us like, oh dear. Um, okay, well, bye.
CW: Oh dear.
WC: It was this very, okay, so the person that you want to kind of put up on this –
CW: Idolize?
WC: Yeah, on this pedestal a little bit maybe disappoints you sometimes. And honestly, I was okay with that. That was okay for me because I knew I was right with God. Mallory and I, we had to learn that the hard way after the pandemic. We made a movie called Stop and Go. And it was what we wanted to do with our time during lockdown. And we were just basically two sisters on a road trip to save our grandma from a COVID infested nursing home. And it was not – it wasn’t a Studio C project, it wasn’t a JK Studios project, it was just us doing our own thing. And so, you know, we have conversations in there of what two 30ish women would talk about. And there were plenty of people who watched it and then were like, I can’t believe you guys. You guys are so disgusting. ‘Cause we talked about periods. We talked about – someone accidentally sent her a dick [00:20:00] pic from the toilet. It just was things like that where we don’t show anything, we don’t even really swear, but things that happen on a road trip with two 30ish sisters. And some people came bringing their kids thinking it was –
CW: A Studio C movie,
WC: A Studio C movie.
SH: Right.
WC: So we already had to, I think, have a lot of interaction with people who thought we were going to hell and that’s okay. I’m glad I’m not living their life, so I’m okay with mine. But, yeah.
CW: Wow, yeah.
WC: That’s my first half of life experience, I’d say.
CW: That sounds really healthy, actually. Like that –
WC: Oh good.
CW: Okay, people wanted to peg me as the Mormon actor, probably? And then when they would see that I’m just a real life person with – who sees R rated movies and –
WC: Right.
CW: You had to just accept that and be okay that I don’t get to control my reputation.
WC: Right, well, and you – I really didn’t. There were things being talked about with me that I didn’t have control over anyway.
CW: Sure.
WC: I don’t want people to talk about my body. I don’t want people to take pictures of me when I’m at a waterpark. But it happens anyway.
CW: Yeah.
WC: So if I have to let that go, I can let go of the other things. Honestly it was more like, do they like how I – do they think I’m good? Like, a good performer? That was what meant the most to me.
CW: Okay.
WC: I didn’t care how they thought of me as a person.
[laughter]
SH: Right.
CW: Do they think I’m amazing at my craft?
WC: Yep. Yep. So then when it was like, oh this person isn’t as funny. Put this person in instead. It was always like, ooh. That would get me.
SH: Ouch. Yeah.
WC: That would get me way harder than you’re not the best Mormon. Okay, well okay. I don’t know that you’re a good Mormon either if you’re judging me. So let’s all be bad Mormons.
CW: There you go.
[laughter]
CW: I can’t really imagine what that would be like to be an entertainer for people who only ever watched, like you said, the early years of BYU TV - Conference, quilting…
WC: Yeah.
SH: And scripture round table.
[laughter]
CW: …and scripture round tables. And then along comes this clean comedy show. But then –
WC: It’s clean, but it’s PG. And honestly we did push it, we pushed it sometimes ‘cause we wanted to write what we thought was funny. Not what kids thought was funny. That wasn’t interesting to us. So, yeah. There were things honestly like sexuality? No, we never went there. But violence? We have some violent things in our sketches. And people were okay with that.
CW: Interesting.
WC: It’s the Mormons who watch Saving Private Ryan, you know? Or The Patriot. Some things are more okay, I guess.
CW: We are such a funny bunch that way. Don’t you think? We are totally fine with violence, but my gosh. You show any sexuality and we’re like, how dare you!
WC: Yep. Yep.
CW: Yeah, yeah. We kind of have our own dissonance there when it comes to – Anyway, we could go off on a whole tangent now about why Mormons are okay with some things and not other things, but –
WC: Oh man. Another day.
CW: Another day.
SH: Yeah, I’m not even gonna jump in here because – .
CW: Yeah, Susan’s awfully quiet right now.
SH: Way too much. Way too much to say about all of that.
[laughter]
SH: Well, I grew up with a mother who’s the Mormoniest Mormon ever and violence was the uncrossable line, but sex, she didn’t care at all about that. So she would send you to a movie with a date and you would get there and say, are you kidding me? Mom!
[laughter]
Because sex just did not register for her at all. I can’t even tell you how many problems this caused in my life.
WC: Oh my gosh. Going to see The Graduate with the boy next door.
SH: Exactly.
WC: Oh my gosh!
CW: My mom said, I think that would be a fun one for you two to go see. Go see that. Ooh. Anyway, so Mormons are complicated. We’re just gonna say that. We’re complicated.
WC: We are. We’re complicated. We’re just people, right?
SH: Yeah, exactly.
CW: It was funny the first time Susan and I – we would talk about our different media choices and what we grew up on. And so I knew this about Susan about movies and her parents and how her parents saw it as art. And so it wasn’t the taboo that it was for me. In my house, I couldn’t even watch Three’s Company because it was two women who had a male roommate.
WC: Yeah.
SH: Okay, but that’s TV. And that was not considered art in my household. So I also – Three’s Company was also frowned on in my house. Oh, there were a whole slew of television shows that we were not allowed to watch. If it was a movie then that was different. Somehow that transcended, so –
WC: Oh, interesting. Dumb and Dumber fine, but TV –
SH: Pretty much. The rated R thing was just not a rule.
CW: But I love this even more, Susan, knowing that you watched family or you watched The Simpsons for almost family home evening with your children. So, you know –
SH: It wasn’t almost family home evening, Cynthia. It was explicit family home –
CW: Explicit family home.
SH: Okay, here’s what we can do. Here’s an hour. We all agree we’d like to be here in front of the television.
CW: Love it. Love it.
SH: It’s family home [00:25:00] evening.
CW: Well, before we move on, Whitney just finish telling – give us the tea, spill a little bit of tea, maybe, about working at Studio C. ‘Cause I really am just – I think Susan and I, you could tell we’re just so fascinated by being in the entertainment industry, but that was church owned.
SH: For the church.
WC: Yeah.
CW: So fascinating.
WC: Entertainment with a bitter taste in your mouth as you say it - “entertainment.”
[laughter]
SH: It’s like air quotes entertainment.
WC: Yeah, right, right. It was really weird. Honestly I’ve gotten to a healthy place now where I recognize everyone working in that building was very scared while I was there. Everyone was very scared. Which is funny because you can have a job for life if you work at BYU TV. It is not based on ratings. There is no money coming in from viewers or from ads. It is from the church. You have a deep well…
CW: I never thought about that.
WC: …that you can draw on every single year and you know you’re going to get that budget and it’s a pretty substantial budget. And obviously I don’t know the workings of the inner workings of all the finances, but I know that you don’t have to be the most popular thing to stay there. You just have to be someone’s pet project.
So I was scared because obviously I don’t think we were anyone’s pet project. I think we were annoyingly popular. It was one of those things where the numbers just could not lie. I remember there was a meeting, I guess, with Elder Ballard where they were asking like, hey, where – what should we be planning for the next season? It really was the first three or four seasons, we didn’t know if we were coming back each season. And there was one meeting, I guess, where Elder Ballard was saying, I don’t care. If people wanna watch the angel thing on the shoulders, then have ‘em watch that. If they wanna watch this, then have ‘em watch that. That was really his response. And it was sort of like. okay. That seemed so cool for an apostle to be like, if people like it, let’s keep making it.
Because honestly, we didn’t feel like that. We felt like the people above us were pretty scared that the apostles were gonna get offended about what we put out there. Because the people above us were the middle management of the church. And I feel like that’s often where the stickiest stuff gets. ‘Cause I feel like once you get into apostleship, it’s like, I don’t care. I am the top. And when you’re low, it’s like, I don’t care. I’m - like what you guys say - I’m in the cheap seats. I don’t care. I’m, I, nothing’s gonna happen. But when you’re in the middle where it’s like I could be an apostle, I could be – I could go up the ladder or I could get excommunicated for making one wrong move.
There was just, there was a lot of fear, I think. And so there was a lot of tension during Studio C and we went through a few different people in charge while we were there. But honestly it was – I don’t think I grasped the whole picture while I was there because there was someone who does not get product-based work trying to make us work eight hours a day in an office with fluorescent lighting and saying, if you’re not here in the building, how do we know that you’re worth what we’re paying you?
And it’s because we’re putting on a show that people watch more than any of your other shows by far. And just having to have that conversation over and over and over again was really gaslighty. Just super weird about okay, I know that we’re doing a good thing here, but it seems like a lot of people don’t want us here, or at least want us to be very grateful for them giving us an opportunity. And I was very grateful for the platform, but by season five or six when you know that you are drawing people into this channel, you would hope that reflected in your work environment and how you were getting treated.
And yeah, I remember there were a lot of general authorities that would visit our live tapings. A lot of times they’d bring their grandkids or things like that. It would be a fun thing. It was very interesting. And Elder Uchtdorf came at one point. Oh, I think he was President Uchtdorf at the time. Oh my gosh. We were all starstruck. Jason in our group, he could do an Uchtdorf impression, and so he did an Uchtdorf impression in front of Uchtdorf. And he was very – he thought that was very fun. We met Elder Cook. We met just all these people who came backstage afterwards and would shake our hands and talk to us. And it was this very oh my gosh, we’re just doing this stupid show, but these people like it.
But at the same time we’d go home and have these conversations sometimes with people overhead about – there were huge discrepancies in our pay between each other, sometimes, just based off of what they felt, who was more popular than someone else.
CW: Wow.
WC: But $60,000 discrepancies.
SH: Oh, wow.
WC: We weren’t supposed to know how much anyone made, but of course, we were friends.
SH: But of course you did. Yeah.
WC: Yeah, of course we did. And so when we would learn about that, it was like, whoa what are you doing? What are you doing here? We really are trying to work together and be a healthy team. And when there’s that much of a discrepancy, I think some people are gonna feel like crap. And just different conversations through all levels of [00:30:00] management. And I remember during all of this, we had an apostle visit and he had said, we talk about you in the highest rooms of the temple. And it was such a weird – honestly, it felt like this vertigo shot on this movie where I’m like, wait a minute. But if you’re talking about us, why aren’t you getting any inspiration that we’re in a really unhealthy, very traumatic work environment? There are things happening here that are not okay.
It was just very fascinating. It was this – my early twenties brain trying to wrap my head around, wait a minute. There’s an apostle here who I guess is getting inspiration for our show, but not about me as a person, not about all of us as people. What does that mean? And do apostles actually get all the inspiration they need to get, or is it just, hey, this is a great missionary tool.
And just seeing it as a block rather than people coming together to make something. It was actually the vice president at BYU at the time who came over to us during a taping once and said, hey, I’ve been talking to some leaders and I’m just – I’ve got a feeling and I wonder if I could talk with you all about how things are going. And it was, honestly, it was that conversation that changed a lot of leadership, that changed a lot of inner workings at BYU TV, and flushed out a lot of unhealthy habits while we were there. So that, honestly, I have a testimony of that person. He was not in leadership – now he is actually. He’s in the Seventy now, I think, but he was so lovely and was very much just, hey, something’s nagging me. I’m feeling kind of weird about this. Can I talk with you specifically without anyone else around? And no one had ever asked to do that before. No one had ever wanted to talk with us about our work environment. And honestly, it was emotional. We were all sobbing in his living room talking about just things that – we loved this show. We loved what we were doing. And honestly it was so difficult for the people in charge of us. I don’t blame any of them now, but just man, people were working with some real fear in that building and it was a hard place for a while. So, yeah, lot of work to be done there.
CW: Interesting.
SH: So can I ask you a follow up question about that?
WC: Sure.
SH: I’m really curious what the appeal was for the church. I’m surprised that something that they didn’t control tightly would be where they would choose to put resources when they started trying to expand what BYU TV might be. And so I’m wondering – you say that people were paid based on how popular they were and things like that. And I’m wondering what was the value for the church? Was it that it was a missionary tool? Is that what they were thinking? And did you think about it as a missionary tool when you were producing it?
WC: Oh, totally.
SH: You did.
WC: Totally.
SH: So did that drive the creative decisions that you made?
WC: No. No, not at all.
SH: Well, I’m just curious how all this goes together.
WC: Okay. When it came to the creative space that was sacred, right? That was – funny is king. We are always gonna go for the best laugh. And obviously, if it goes into any alienating places, we didn’t wanna do that. We wanted to be as inclusive as possible, but we’re subjective people. We’re not gonna be able to see this without a bias. So, of course, my view of what looks inclusive is not going to – we had a person write in and say they were so offended. We made a joke about hernias. And it was like, all right I can’t be the baseline for everyone. There’s just gonna be people who get offended by everything, and that’s okay. I’m not writing to them. I’m writing to the person I think is the every person. It wasn’t until it started getting big on BYU TV, we realized, oh, families really like this. Kids really like this. ‘Cause up to that point, it had just been for college kids. And so at that point we started realizing, wow. We did a Face-to-Face. We were speaking for the church sometimes. We were the faces in a lot of ways.
CW: By Face-to-Face, do you mean the firesides, that broadcast?
WC: Yes.
CW: Okay.
WC: Yep. Those fireside that they would do sometimes We had one with all 10 of us talking about our faith. I’m sure that was something that BYU TV was super excited about. The church was super excited about. It was like, look, you have Mormons who look normal.
CW: That’s interesting.
WC: But honestly, we were really entwined in the business aspect of the church. There’s church with a big C, church with a little c, you often hear. And so we – That’s how I often had to make peace with my testimony was, okay, I’m working for church with a little c right now, which means that we have to put on this show for donors of BYU TV and their families and it takes a lot of energy and we don’t wanna do it. And we’re kind of like dancing monkeys right now, but in order to keep this show going, we have to make donors happy, which means we have to make sure that they know we’re good Mormons. We love this church and we have a lot of fun prepared for them. And then you’d go [00:35:00] home and remember okay, God is my God. God is not BYU’s God. God is not –. It’s my God.
CW: I’m struck by something you were talking about a minute ago when you were talking about the apostles and maybe some of them would come to see the tapings and stuff. Not necessarily be your boss, but I mean they are on the board of directors, whatever you call it.
WC: They are, technically, right? Yeah.
CW: Yeah, of BYU. And so I think that would be really interesting to see our church leaders in a professional type position. Maybe that’s the lower c church you’re talking about as opposed to a prophetic, which is the big C. Of course. It’s all gnarly, entangled together. And part of me, as you’re telling that story, Whitney, about meeting the apostles and you’re in your early twenties, I’m like, okay. I’m wondering, is Whitney putting a pin in that? Hmm, come back to that later when church starts getting a little ouchie in some ways to try to understand the separation between…
WC: Sure.
CW: …all of that. So, that’s interesting.
WC: Sure. ‘Cause there are people that we would work with much more frequently than the apostles. The apostles were always the distant name of, yeah, Elder Ballard sits in on – he, I think was the person in charge of most of the content for BYU TV. He was the head of that board, or whatever, at the time. And then you have the middle people who eventually become higher people who get into the Quorum of the Seventy who get into –. And you see them giving talks during Conference and things like that, where it’s, ooh. I’m sure this is how the wives of prophets have had to be able to figure this out all along, right?
I’m seeing someone who – and for me, honestly, I probably saw some of the worst sides of these people because it was the worst side of me. I know it was the worst side of me coming into this building, being so fearful, thinking everyone was out to get me. Thinking – I had a chip on my shoulder for sure. When you come into a building knowing a lot and – not the everyday people who work there, but the people in charge. Knowing that the people in charge still didn’t get it? Didn’t know why I was valuable?
CW: Interesting.
WC: Of course I’m gonna come at it super defensive, super snarky, just be – my little 24-year-old self being like, hey, I’m worth something. I’m valuable. It’s that message, right? It’s the I’m not valuable ‘til someone values me?
CW: Yeah.
SH: Right.
WC: A lot of reasons for that feeling. But yeah, so I know that when I’m seeing these people at their worst and then they’re coming across the pulpit. There’s a lot of feelings there of oof, but man, how can I – I know that they could have some stories to talk about with me. ‘Cause I certainly wasn’t an angel.
[laughter]
I was so gossipy on set. That’s my step nine inventory right now is all of my – I’m making amends to all the people I gossiped about ‘cause I’m not an assertive person and I can’t say it to your face. So I tell everyone else how I’m feeling. Anyway, so I know everyone there was probably a bit miserable while also doing something that was so fun, so uplifting, so empowering. It was a lot of dissonance. Yeah.
CW: I find that so fascinating. I mean, along with what you’re saying right now, it reminds me of something you said a few minutes ago about everybody who worked there was afraid. And I just think, I wonder if the people high up like that? Like, oh good, the fear will keep them in line. Or if that would make them sad to realize, wait, what?
SH: Well now, Cynthia, I just feel like that is a much bigger question than as applies to this TV show.
WC: Yeah.
CW: Exactly. Exactly, that’s my whole point is, as Whitney’s talking about this fear, I’m thinking, you know, we had a whole chapter in our book about fear for this. I just see so many parallels there and how fear shouldn’t be a motivator. But I think so often we use fear in the church as a tool. Maybe sometimes as a weapon. You’re just touching on all these interesting things that send out tentacles.
WC: Cynthia, you’re blowing my mind. I feel like this whole time I’ve been thinking about it as this little microcosm of our network here that we worked in of – Yeah, we kind of all just let ourselves succumb to the fear but seeing it maybe for the matrix is kind of blowing my mind.
CW: Yeah.
WC: What if it was meant to be that way?
SH: Yeah, that’s, I don’t really know. I’d love to know, but also when I hear you talk about, the, you’re not valuable unless somebody values you. When you say things like that, then what I hear is worthiness. I see exactly where you came from, right?
WC: Yes.
SH: Because that is the whole mindset, I feel, of Latter- Day Saints that God doesn’t even value – that we’re not valuable unless God values us. But God values us only by very specific actions. Man, if you get the checklist, then you’re valuable to God. And if you don’t, then…
WC: Well, and there’s a checklist on top of the [00:40:00] checklist. ‘Cause honestly, growing up I felt so confident about the checklist. I’m an Enneagram one.
CW: Same, me too.
SH: Yeah, Cynthia.
WC: So you get it where I was so good at being good.
CW: Oh yeah. Yeah.
WC: My first boyfriend in high school cheated on me because I wouldn’t kiss or let him put his hand on my thigh. I was very just, no, that’s okay. I was very kind of a point of pride for me to know that I’ve got it. I – any temple interview, I am good. I do not toe the line. I drive my carriage as close to the mountain as possible, but I’m cool about it. I’m not annoying.
And that’s where the second check checklist comes on top, right? That’s where it’s, okay, you have the worthiness things, but then this is probably where my own neuroses got involved was, but also do you have a fresh coat of paint? Do you have, are you sociable? Are you able to look past yourself and reach out to other people who feel lonely? You go into Relief Society, I don’t normally sit next to someone who’s sitting by themselves because I’m like, oh, they don’t want me to sit by them.
And that’s the checklist on the checklist where it’s – and honestly, that’s the one I probably base my value off of is – yeah, I do all of the black and white things. But then there’s this other layer on top that the church is also making sure, but also are you being a good person? Just being a good person. And that gets messier because then when it’s yeah, I do wanna love other people. I do wanna be Christlike. I do want to do all of these things. And it’s, but you’re not doing it very well. Huh? Someone has some room to improve. So, I don’t know.
CW: I’ve never heard it described that way before. A checklist on a checklist, but that makes me need to lie down.
[laughter]
SH: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just feel like that’s a system that there’s no way you can win.
WC: Sure. Sure.
SH: So then it causes you to grasp the really concrete checklist, maybe a little harder, right? You lean into that because you’ve got that. That’s covered.
WC: Yeah, sure. Because honestly, Cynthia, when you say you need to lie down, I’m like, but Cynthia, it sounds like you’re good at the checklist on the checklist. You loved doing cooking for Girls Camp. I’m like, yeah, no way in hell could you send me as the cook for Girls Camp. I’m not gonna do good at that. I’m in Young Women’s right now and I feel like it’s really stretching me. I love the girls and I feel my own insecurities getting in the way when I want to be the cool leader. I wanna be the fun one. And so when it is like, hey, can you pick up this person who needs a ride to their doctor’s appointment? Like for me it’s always, uhhh, well, I don’t know. And I look at other people who just rock at that.
I was in the Relief Society presidency after I’d had my last kid. He was a newborn and I was in the presidency, and so I was having to make house calls to people and go visit people. And I was so terrible at it. I got released from that calling within nine months, ‘cause I think, the president, bless her heart – I told her, I was like, I’m not gonna be very good at this. And she’s like, I know, but God wants me to call you. And I was like, okay. I’m not gonna be very good at it, though. I’m normally not a flaky person. I can normally get things done, but I feel so flaky. I was. I was very flaky. And I got released.
So, yeah, that checklist on the checklist, I don’t know. I don’t know if I’ll get called to many leadership positions because that checklist on the checklist.
CW: Yes.
WC: It’s not great for me.
CW: Oh, I just can hear the collective sigh right now of all of our listeners. We’re not that unique, Susan. So I figure, if I need to lie down hearing about that because I was really good at doing the bacon at 6:00 AM at Girls Camp, but just like what you’re talking about, the one-on-one ministering. Even going down and seeing how the widow on the corner is. You know what I mean?
WC: I’m terrible at that.
CW: Yeah. That’s harder. Harder for me. So, anyway.
WC: It makes sense. I, you know what I, I organize movie nights now at my house every week with the ladies in my neighborhood. But I’m – I feel like that’s helpful for me if there’s some sort of on my terms.
CW: Same.
WC: Which then there’s the guilt, right? Where it’s, well it shouldn’t be convenient. And it’s, well, I want a strong web of community wherever I go. And this is a way that I know how to connect with people. So I am, you know what? I think God’s like, good, better that, than nothing.
CW: Well, Whitney, what changed? Tell us about your faith shift.
WC: Okay. Yeah. So honestly this, the shift for my faith journey, it doesn’t seem very connected at first. ‘Cause it wasn’t as much the shift in my direct faith to church as it was just the uprooting of my entire life, which then I think molded how I now approach everything, including faith.
And that was that seven years into my marriage, I discovered that my husband has a sex addiction. That’s a super heavy sentence. I could feel people’s stomachs dropping as I tell [00:45:00] them this. He, yeah. And sex addiction, it has so many – there’s so many tentacles with that phrase, right? Sometimes it’s called lust addiction. Sometimes it’s called a problem instead of an addiction. ‘Cause a lot of people don’t like the shame that addiction brings.
I’m very twirled up in the 12 step program, which is, it’s helpful for me to call it an addiction because it helps me see the sickness instead of it as a choice. And so for me, I like calling it an addiction. But honestly, I mean the whole umbrella, like pornography - whatever that umbrella covers. I just use that umbrella to just talk generally about what went on with my family. And yeah, it was a big world rocker for me.
Because it was not a confession, it was a forced discovery, which means that it was not his choice for me to find out about this. I mean, it rocked my world. It was, yeah, it, everything fractured. I like to say essentially whatever glass was over my life, it just shattered. And it was after that, I just had to keep picking up pieces of the glass, memories I had of our life together. And looking at it now with this new filter. And feeling, okay, all the memories I have are a lie. All the things that we built together are a lie because this was going on without my knowledge.
And it just was all the shock of it, of like, am I just stupid? Am I, was the wool just pulled over my eyes? Because I’d had fears about this being the case in our marriage, but never something that I thought was this full blown. I mean, it was an act of addiction for him. I know for some people, they’ll use addiction when it means – some people even say they have an addiction if they haven’t acted out for years.
Because for them it helps to use that language. But I do mean this was a taking over his life thing. And I think the first step was honestly – I mean after the super, super big shock of just like, is everything a lie? Is everything I’ve ever believed in a lie? What does my life mean anymore?
There was a lot of turning inward. We had just had our third kid and I had just been getting really into shape. My body looked very different at this point. And so there was almost this feeling of why isn’t that enough? And I know that throughout our marriage I brought my own baggage into our marriage as well.
And Jennifer Finlayson-Fife has had so many good things to say about this, but I often felt like I was the manager of sex. I had to be the designated driver. There was always that insecurity coming into this marriage. And you know what, looking back on it, I understand that a lot of the experiences that I had with intimacy and my husband were when I – I was being objectified ‘cause my husband wasn’t even really able to be there, be present, you know?
And so my body could feel that and I didn’t like it, but I just thought, man, why don’t I, why don’t I wanna have sex as much as everyone seems to say that they wanna have sex as much as. Am I just, am I frigid? Am I, is there something wrong with me? I remember going to therapy for trust issues because I was like, hey, are you looking at pornography? Are you doing this? Are you doing –. So I was like, what’s wrong with me? And I, so before finding out any of this that was – that was my journey, was like, man, I must need to resolve some trust issues in myself because I have a lot going on here and why am I not more open towards my spouse? And then everything blew up.
And so it was this sort of, it was a confirmation of hey, you were right. But I didn’t feel that immediately. I think immediately it was the sense of what more could I do? How can I, how can I fix this? How can I fix this? So as a one, I looked up every podcast, read every book, went to every therapist and just looking into how can I fix this? And that’s of course the first step of 12 steps, right? Is just admitting you can’t. You can’t fix it.
CW: Step one, I can’t.
WC: Well, and my sponsor she phrases it so beautifully, but she says, this part of the recovery for me was low boundaries, high compassion. Meaning I had a lot of compassion for my husband ‘cause I didn’t know all the truth yet. I just thought I must have it wrong. I didn’t know it was an addiction yet. I just thought maybe I walked in on something that was a one-time thing. Or discovered an anomaly, an exception to the rule. And so for months, I was looking for ways to fix myself.
And I was totally – I wasn’t setting any boundaries because I didn’t know I could, not with your husband. That was such a new concept to me. And so it was very low boundaries, but high compassion for him. That was the first step, I think, in just, [00:50:00] I think just trying to get to sleep at night without it running through my head over and over and over was the first step, trying to recognize, okay, my life is shattered.
CW: As you’re talking, it reminds me, this season we had an episode on the emotional labor of women, and I just think here is one more thing where we ask, demand, whatever, that women are the gatekeepers. We have a phrase from one of our past Young Women’s presidents. Women are the guardians of virtue.
WC: Yes.
SH: Guardians of virtue.
CW: I mean, how much do we heap on women? You can’t keep that going forever without becoming unwell.
WC: Of course.
CW: And so much of your story resonates. I’ve had issues like that in my own family and part of it is just, yes, you need to move forward and have healing, but also you need to look backward and realize I came to this with all of these preconceptions of the one who should carry the emotional labor in the marriage, in the sex, in the bedroom, in the all of that.
WC: Yes. Both sides are getting this narrative, right? We – I’m getting the narrative growing up that it is my job to keep men chaste. And it is also my job to placate my husband by just being able to be intimate.
That’s, I feel the – that’s almost our master’s class in Young Women’s or something. That’s what we tell each other as adult women, as young adult women. And it’s so gross because obviously both sexes like sex, both sexes like sex and both sexes don’t like sex.
It’s just we’re so individual. There are individual relationships with sex. And also based off of past traumas, every person is going to have a different relationship to sex. And yes, there are things that we need. We need food, we need water. We don’t need sex, but we sometimes feel like we do.
CW: Well said.
WC: And so, especially when you’re looking at an eternal marriage and looking at, okay, sex is bad. Sex is bad. Sex is bad. Now you’re married. Sex is so good. You should be having sex with your partner. You should be having very joyful connecting sex with your partner.
I never had the good girl problem when I got married. It was never, oh, I can’t do that. This is naughty, this is bad. Probably ‘cause my family was so crass growing up, but I did have the mentality of, oh, this isn’t gonna be fun. This isn’t really – I can tell I’m gonna have to just grit and bear it because it is fun for him. And what kind of wife just decides nope, if I don’t wanna do this, then you can’t do it either. Well, I’ll tell you– a healthy wife. A healthy wife does that.
I remember I was reading Original Grace and I had this big aha moment and I wrote it in my journal. I said, “I know that the Savior’s grace can heal my pain and even my wrongs, but I don’t think I’ve truly believed that the Savior’s grace can heal Stephen’s wrongs because if he did, then my pain isn’t valid. Why would I be so hurt if it was caused by something that Stephen could just move on from and be better? My pain feels like a stain that won’t ever come out. Surely Stephen’s sins are the same. But in tethering my pain to Steven’s ability to change, I’m damning both of us. The Savior is asking me to let go of the pain, to let him hold the pain, and over time it can be replaced by love, peace, and hope. Do I believe him?”
That was really hard to write. I didn’t want to hold it. I had so much pain, so much agony over the choices of someone else. And I thought, can’t it just be this person’s responsibility? Because there’s so much pain, I don’t think it’s ever gonna go away. And to just recognize, do I believe Christ? Do I actually let it go? I think I just started having more and more experiences like that where I just was grappling for whatever light I could find through the Divine Feminine, through energy work, through whatever it was. Finding those moments of being held and recognizing that wasn’t coming from anywhere, but from within myself, from this God that I’m growing closer to.
I don’t have the strength to do that myself right now. And so to just basically give it over to God and let God hold me was, I think, that really powerful lesson for me of just grace is this overflowing river. Am I gonna jump in or am I gonna keep trying to pull my cart alongside it? Just hoping that someone [00:55:00] else will give me a lift.
CW: Wow. Forgive me for going back five or seven minutes.
WC: No, please.
CW: But here’s what I keep thinking, Whitney, is you actually used the phrase masterclass earlier, right? And so here I am thinking, okay, you said you’re serving in Young Women’s right now. And I’m thinking our young women need a masterclass from someone like you and what it means to listen to yourself.
WC: Yes.
CW: To trust your intuition. And even if, like you said, sometimes it may be what you were fearing was maybe just your own trauma coming out. The fact that your partner could sit with that because he knew where you had been hurt. I’m just thinking this is next level kind of stuff.
WC: It’s hard.
CW: But it’s so essential for our young women to know they can trust themselves. And they should be listening to themselves first and foremost.
WC: Absolutely. Absolutely. I wish I could fire hose this into all my young women. In fact, I had a young woman who was getting married and I got her all these books about boundaries, and I was giving them to her and talking to her during our lunch together. And it just – it dawned on me a lot of this stuff you can’t learn in a conversation.
I can’t just give my experience. My sponsor was so patient with me, she was five or six years ahead of me in the process, and she just let me be in my low boundaries, high compassion phase. She didn’t try to push me into this phase, right? Because I wouldn’t have been there anyway. And I look at my young women and I’m very open about –. Steven and I, we’re very open about our journey. We’ve chatted with – we’ve done a fifth Sunday lesson at our church. We’ve talked about this with other people. So the young women, they do know my story.
It’s not something that you – that’s why I wanted to do a TV show about this or a movie because it is one of those things that’s like, ugh, if I could paint the whole picture for people that it’s not just – ‘cause every movie we have about addiction, it’s usually from the addict’s perspective and it’s usually a very underdog, very victorious, oh Ray Charles got through it and a star is born. Bradley Cooper, he is getting over his alcoholism. But to look at it from – Jeff Stewart actually sent us this New York Times article that was really validating about the betrayed partner in sex addiction and why it’s so icky.
Nobody really wants to look at that story because it’s out of your control. And we like to be a society that emphasizes controlling your destiny. And so to have any sort of betrayal trauma is not a story that we really like to delve into usually.
And there’s a balance there of I’m a victim, but I choose not to be in victimhood sort of mentality where I want to recognize, yeah, this was out of my control. I can control where I go with it, but also any person I know who’s in trauma from betrayal, I give them as much space to do whatever they want. If you wanna go cut all your husband’s ties, if you wanna drive your car into your house, you know what, right on sister. You are processing and you get as much time as you need to with that,
CW: What you just said those last 60 seconds that is so, so, so important for whatever the trauma is.
SH: For whatever it is.
WC: Yes, yes.
CW: We have to express it in some way, otherwise, tamping it down, that never works, you know?
WC: Right. Well, and whether the trauma, whether you think the trauma is deserved or not deserved. I’ve had sometimes my own sheepishness when you hear other people’s stories with sex addiction and it’s like, oh, am I overreacting?
And you kind of have to get a thick skin around that anyway. ‘Cause I had people telling me, well, isn’t it a woman’s responsibility to cover up her body so that it’s not causing all this problem? And I’m like, no. A woman should be able to walk down the street naked. And it is up to everyone else how they deal with that.
And there’s just, there’s so much in there of – I think I just had to recognize not everyone’s going to feel this way. But that’s okay. And so with trauma, not everyone’s going to get someone’s trauma. And I guess that’s why I harp on so much about [what] sex addiction is, honestly. That is my experience with the church. What I did with my partner is how I have interacted with the church because the church really does work in an addict mindset. It’s very black and white thinking.
CW: Yes.
WC: I think as an organization it maybe feels like it has to be. So you’re coming to church with these messages of either [01:00:00] or. You have to be perfect or you’re a piece of crap. And we say that’s not what the messaging is, but that is how we enforce it, right?
CW: Mmhmm.
WC: And we can also talk about repression and purity culture and all that kind of stuff that what goes into fueling an addiction.
But you look at an organization and you look at, okay, my body is telling me that this is not okay, and I’m pushing it down for the first part of my life, right? I’m saying well, don’t go too close to the edge. You’re a better carriage driver if you stay by the mountain. And are you doing all of the things you should be doing, because if you’re having these thoughts, it’s ‘cause you’re not praying enough, reading your scriptures enough, going to the temple enough. Those are all the things that bishops cite when you start to slip. It’s the very black and white mindset. And in trying to process my interaction with that, I think it went from high compassion, low boundaries, to then going in this very angry space of like, Joseph Smith did what?! And even just hearing y’alls garment episode of recognizing that men’s garments are shorter, the bottoms are shorter than the women’s. Just very much like, aah, there’s so much anger. And that’s not a I’m past that now. I’m always in the middle space. But just recognizing your pendulum is going to swing and it’s necessary. That is necessary. You have to go through each of those steps to be able to reach high boundaries, high compassion. You can’t skip a step.
CW: Right. And I know for so many women in this space, setting high boundaries with the organization is what they ended up needing to do.
Quit talking about this with untrained bishops. Untrained clergy. Quit trying to make your life experiences fit back into that mold. ‘Cause once the toothpaste comes outta the tube, it doesn’t ever go back in. And this goes with so many different topics, not just the specific topic that you’ve been talking about, but I know, for me, I described it when everything fell apart.
For me, I described it as an organizational crisis because it really was. I lost so much trust in the organization and how they were handling things in my family. That in some ways that never came back. And in a way, it never should have. It never needed to. I need to be the arbiter and the decision maker in my own life, not men who are in unmerited positions of authority.
Well, Whitney, this has been a great conversation. We still have some information, though, on your outline we would love to get through. So, can you tell us in what ways have you been changed by this journey and also fold in some advice there to other women listening.
WC: Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, it’s changed everything.
We all have to probably make this growth process. For me, it just, it had to start with an explosion. It probably does for most of us. Probably has to start with some sort of explosion. But, I feel like getting to this place where my connection to God is very personal now because I really had to tune out any other voices that blocked me from my intuition.
That had to be such a focused practice for me. So even with meditation – and I do a lot of two-way prayer where I write my prayers to God and then I write down what God is saying back to me. And it’s not even necessarily like, oh, for sure this is exactly what God is saying, but just trusting my own voice that I know what God would say to me.
I know what God would say in this moment. And it’s always very loving. It’s this very safe feeling. And so that tether to God is very tight. To Christ, very tight. Honestly, the only man in my life that I feel complete safety with is Christ because Christ to me – Christ knew what it was like to have that kind of explosion in my life. And Christ knew in my husband’s life what it brought him through all of that.
And so just on a daily basis, that’s a really strong chord for me and to recognize that’s not the church. The church is the map. It’s the cartography. It’s not the actual terrain that I’m walking on. As Matt Bauman says, it’s a way for me to connect to God.
But man, my lifelines were all getting severed during this very black, dark period in my life. And it really just had to come from within because so many things were so triggering. Church, temple, a lot of things felt [01:05:00] so unsafe that it really did almost just feel like going back in the womb and being like, alright, God, you and me. How do I go to the next step?
And so just recognizing that tether, everyone has it, everyone has that tether. I do Oracle Decks and I sometimes like to do that when friends come over because it’s so fun to be like, hey, what card would you choose? And they choose one that’s face down and they pick one up and it has – it’s exactly the thing they’ve been wanting to look at.
And I wanna be like, look you, you have this, you knew what card you needed. And it’s just such a silly way to look at everyone has this tether. And you just have to be aware of it. Like Richard Rohr was saying, you just have to tune in. That’s what prayer is. It’s just getting your tuning fork out.
So I would love to just strengthen the women around me. Statistically, a lot of women are going through this, more than we’d think. And it’s not just men who have this addiction, obviously. Women have it as well. And so just looking at almost everyone you know is probably going through some iteration of this in their family, in their partnership, whatever.
And so I just wanna buoy anyone listening and saying, you’re not alone. You’re not crazy. If you’ve thought you are crazy for this much time, your body is doing what it’s supposed to do, and you can trust that. Because even if you’re wrong right now, the worst thing is you’re wrong and you put up some boundaries. The worst thing is you’re wrong and later you’ll be right and your world will explode and you’ll have to pick up all the pieces. The worst thing that happens is that eventually there’s a course correction because God is just that good. And I’ve got this crappy messaging my whole life that I’m not valuable ‘til someone values me.
And I sure got a wake up call and it wasn’t by my own doing. So yeah, God’s gonna hold us in whatever state we are and so trust yourself and you’ll get there.
CW: Can’t think of a better message for our listeners. Trust yourself and you’ll get there.
SH: Absolutely.
CW: Well, can we ask our final question? We love to ask all of our guests, which is, what do you know? What’s one thing that you know, Whitney, right now today?
WC: I changed this so many times on the outline.
CW: Did you?
WC: I changed every day. I look like a maniac. I would say today that everything helps, and that sounds so counterintuitive because there’s a lot of crap. But I mean, internally, on days where I’m maybe not practicing my recovery very well and I am in trauma, or I’m hypervigilant or I’m really angry. That helps me sort of bump up against – we’ve got a bumper system. There’s no gutters for our bowling balls in this life.
CW: So true.
WC: So, everything helps, right? I’ll bump up against that bumper and I’ll be able to course correct and God is so patient and loving with me. And I don’t even know that it’s patient in a long suffering way. I think it’s a patience with – I’m with you. I’m with you right now in this. I feel this with you. And then you bump and you start changing the direction and God’s like, oh great. We’re going in a new direction. I’m here with you too. So I would say, if it’s happening inside of you, it’s necessary. And everything helps.
SH: Love it.
CW: That’s a great what do you know. I love that. I’m gonna be thinking on that for a while now. Everything helps.
SH: Everything helps.
WC: It sounds like you could shoot it down pretty easily with different things, but you dive into it and it’s well, yeah, but –
CW: But that’s why it’s so good. Yeah.
SH: Yeah. That feels pretty durable to me, actually.
WC: I know it today. I won’t tomorrow, but –
CW: That’s right. Of course.
[laughter]
SH: That’s why we ask the question, what do you know today? It’s not a trick question.
CW: Well, Whitney Call, thank you so much for bringing buckets of vulnerability today.
WC: Sure.
CW: And humor.
SH: Amazing. Thank you for bringing your whole self.
CW: Your whole self.
WC: Well, thanks for having me. I don’t know what else to bring. It really is all I’ve got.
Voicemail 1: My faith deconstruction started at the age of 37 when I realized a part in my patriarchal blessing would not come to pass. I was 16 years old when I received my patriarchal blessing, which stated I would be able to bring children into this world very easily. In my 14 years of marriage, I have had three miscarriages and one ectopic pregnancy that resulted in losing one of my fallopian tubes.
After 10 years of unsuccessful fertility treatments, we decided to move forward with adoption. Our daughter is our greatest blessing, and I’m so thankful for her. But after adopting our daughter, I thought surely we would be blessed with more [01:10:00] children. Now, as I am 39 and my window to bear children is coming to an end and not enough money to adopt again, I’m questioning my blessing and my faith.
How can something that is supposed to be directly from God through a patriarch not be true? I have talked to many church leaders and no one has answers from me. I almost feel stupid believing my patriarchal blessing is from God when it has been nothing but easy. To help myself grieve and move on with my life, I’ve had to come to terms that it was a well-intended blessing from a man and not from God and that God has another plan for me. I still attend church with my believing husband, but I am questioning everything.
Voicemail 2: Hi, Cynthia and Susan. This is Ashley. Thinking about my own faith journey, I don’t know that it was a particular event that triggered my faith journey, but rather what wasn’t happening, I’ve lived long enough to do all the things in the church.
I was married in the temple. I attended BYU on a full scholarship. I was a temple worker. I’ve served in multiple leadership callings, but there was just always something missing. I never felt whole. I was miserable. I was exhausted spiritually, emotionally, physically. I was angry all the time, and I constantly felt like I didn’t have control in my life, that I was limited by a set of rules that more and more just began to feel quite arbitrary.
So I got to the point where I just couldn’t do the mental gymnastics to reconcile my actual reality with the one reality I was allowed to have in the church. And I came to the conclusion that a loving God would never want me to be in a church that was causing me harm as a woman, even if it was true.
So I quit. I resigned. And for the first time in my life, I feel whole and the cloud of misery and anger has lifted.
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