Episode 223 (Transcript): Making Friends with Change | A Conversation About Hope

Episode Transcript

Many thanks to listener, Rebecca Graham, for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app, or can be listened to here on our website as well. All the notes and resources we cited in the episode are found at this link as well:

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SH: Soft heart, Cynthia, soft heart. Where have we heard this idea before? That our hearts are supposed to be softened? CW: Mmm. SH: Interesting when I put it in the context of a faith journey, because I think that I suspected that I was gonna be accused of having a hard heart when I started to change direction…CW: Yes! SH: …You know, and struggle with some beliefs and reevaluate things.

CW: Oh my gosh. 

SH: Actually, maybe I was doing it just right._____

CW: Hello, I'm Cynthia Winward. SH: And I'm Susan Hinkley. CW: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things and the title of today's episode is “Making Friends with Change | A Conversation About Hope.”

CW: Welcome back Susan. SH: Welcome back, Cynthia. I'm really excited to be here. CW: I am too.

SH: It always feels pretty exciting at the beginning of a season, CW: Uh-huh. SH: Sometimes by the end of the season we're feeling a little bit tapped out. Like, can we possibly think of anything else to say into these microphones? CW: Yeah. SH: But at the beginning, it's all about hope. CW: It is. But you know what's funny is I actually had to read our opening line, “We are women of faith discussing complicated things,” because it's been a while. 

SH: [laughing]CW: It's been a while since we're on microphones, and I was like, I totally forgot our whole intro. So luckily, that's great. It was written word for word in our notes, so it's a good thing we came back because I'm forgetting the very basic things about At Last She Said It.

SH: I think that means that you did the break right.  That's what I think. 

CW: Thank you! SH: Yeah. Well done. CW: Let's go with that. Right. Let's go with that. Well, as we begin Season 10, can you even believe it, first of all?SH: I can't believe it. CW: [laughing] As we begin season 10, you and I were thinking on break, not thinking too hard, 'cause you know, break.

SH: [laughing]

CW: But we were thinking about what our theme could be. And you texted me one day and you said, “What do you think of the theme of navigating change?” So, why don't you go ahead and tell our audience why you came up with that, because I loved it instantly, but let's hear a little more. 

SH: You know, I heard myself the other day on one of the interviews that we did, podcast interviews that we did, promoting our book. I heard me call myself a Warrior for Change. I don't know if you remember that, but CW: [laughing] I don’t. SH: When it came outta my mouth…sometimes you learn things about yourself like while you're talking, right. And that surprised even me. But I think it's true. I think I've become a warrior for change at this point in my life.CW: Yes. 

SH: And it's because it has been such a huge revelation to me, somehow as I get older, that change is the constant thing about life. I don't know why I thought it was gonna get better. I thought things were gonna slow down at some point, I guess, and that's just because I hadn't lived long enough, maybe.

But duh, I finally figured it out that this is the constant thing. And I mean, it makes sense if you think about life, it begins in change. I mean, you're this baby safe and happy, wrapped in this warm, dark place. You don't know what's going on, and then suddenly you're in this life and death struggle to be born.CW: Hm. 

SH: And then imagine finding yourself in the world all of a sudden, right? You got bright lights, you got beeps, you got noises, you got all kinds of stuff going on. CW: Mm. SH: You may have mom making unpleasant noises as she's trying to push you out. I mean, it would be really traumatic and it doesn't get better. Like, a few weeks later you are toted off in a baby carrier and you, like, you might find yourself in an Applebee's, Cynthia. Both: [laughing] SH: And so it's just like, I can't imagine how you go from being in the womb to being in an Applebee's in just a couple of short weeks. CW: Exactly. SH: But to me, it's a great metaphor for life because the traumas just keep coming. It's one after another. And so I figured out I better get comfortable with this. And so talking through it on a season of podcast episodes feels like a really good way, to me, to plumb my own depths about this, figure out how much I really have learned, how much I have figured out, and maybe teach myself some new things.

So, that's why we're gonna talk about it. I feel like every woman who listens to us is probably in a transitional phase of her life in some way, just because we all are. 

CW: We all are. And in this conversation, I feel like we're going to talk about, we're gonna kind of introduce that topic of navigating change, but maybe from more of a, like, 10,000 foot view.

SH: Right. CW: Whereas I know we already have episodes planned where we're gonna get down to the nitty gritty of like, when this change happens in your life. SH: Right. CW: And talk about some of those. But I'm really glad we're starting this season opener with kind of an overall view of, about, change and hope. And I did notice looking at our eight pages of notes, Susan, we're ridiculous… [00:05:00] SH: [laughing}

CW: …is we are quoting approximately 101 other people, which gives me a lot of peace because I'm like, you and I are not that smart when it comes to like, SH: RightCW: Like you were saying a minute ago, why did I ever think at some point the change would slow down? So I'm really glad we're bringing in all of our smart friends to help us talk about this. 'Cause it's a gnarly topic. This is hard. 

SH: It's a gnarly topic indeed. It really is. I wrote about in the book that one of my mom's sayings that she'll be the most remembered for when she's gone. Is that “the one class everyone should be required to take is Change 101.” CW: Change 101. 

SH: Yes. It's still one of the truest things that I know. But I didn't take the class for some reason early enough in my life. So I feel like I'm in the class now.

CW: [laughing] That is funny that that was your mom's theme, and yet you still didn't absorb that into your bones? 

SH: Who believes anything their mom says, Cynthia? CW: Oh, well that's a separate conversation. SH: [laughing] CW: Oh, goodness. 

SH: I feel like I can say that as a mother, I've been on both sides of that equation.

CW: Absolutely. SH: The one who doesn't listen and the one who isn't listened to. CW: Uh-huh. SH: So, anyway. Let's jump in. Should we? CW: Let's jump in. SH: Okay. I want to start by prefacing this conversation with the idea that I'm defining changes as things, generally, that happen without our permission or, you know, outside our control.

And you might remember, I've mentioned this quote before, that Richard Rohr defines suffering as whenever we are not in control. Love that definition of suffering. Right? CW: So true. SH: But sometimes changes are also things that we choose. 

CW: Yeah.

SH: I mean, things we choose can also cause change, right? Even the best ones can send out unanticipated ripples in our lives.

CW: That's a good point. SH: Things that we didn't really think about when we made the choice. So changes happen in all kinds of ways, at all times of life. And with our permission and without our permission. So, go ahead. Let's start right here. Tell me…CW: Okay. SH: …What are the biggest, most destabilizing changes that you've faced in your life?

CW: [laughing] Well, I've talked about some of those really big changes, but I'm just gonna go get down to the nitty gritty. And I'm sorry to our male listeners, but I'm sure you hear about it from the women in your life as well who are in their fifties. But perimenopause, I had no idea.SH: [laughing]CW: I had no…like the other day I heard an OBGYN say something about itchy ears, and I was like, wait, my ears have been itchy for months now! I've, like, had to put lotion, I've, like, scratched the hell out of ‘em to the point where like, I had scabs, and I'm like, why didn't someone tell me? Why didn't my mother, grandmother, why didn't somebody…SH: Right!CW: …Tell me that was, like, a symptom. And so, yes, I mean, I knew about the awful sleep, I knew about body composition, I think I texted you one time about body composition saying this lump moved from here to here.SH: [laughing]CW: I was like, how did that happen? I mean, the best part is having zero clucks to give. That's been really great. SH: Right, right. CW: But yeah, nobody told me about itchy ears, Susan. That's ridiculous. 

SH: I’ve never heard of that, but now I'm gonna be thinking about it every time. CW: Lucky you. SH: Every time I'm itching my ears because you're right. Wow. Perimenopause and menopause came with a whole bunch of stuff that I had no idea about. I think menopause must be the Applebee's of life stages, actually.CW: [laughing]

SH: It's about the lowest point. [laughing] And that's why no one talks about it because they know you'd back up and run outta your own life screaming if you knew what was coming. CW: Oh my gosh. SH: It's a big one to navigate. Yeah. For me, the shifts between life stages have been really hard, like getting married was really hard. So it started pretty early since I did that young. And that's one that I chose, but even the best decisions can be hard to adjust to sometimes. And it continues to throw off, you know, little gifts into my life as everyone's does, and changes in my body, like you mentioned, and then moves, man, we moved so much, you know, raising our kids. CW: You have. SH: And moves are just gnarly huge changes, especially when they're trying to, when you're trying to accomplish them for a whole family. That just comes with a lot of stuff. And culture shock, all kinds of, I don't know. I feel like I've navigated a lot of big changes that…CW: You have. SH: …I didn't really have that much control over. And I also didn't learn to let go, though, in that process. [laughing] CW: Okay. SH: I mean, I guess over time I have learned, but that was like the last lesson to come to me.

CW: Yeah. SH: And I'm not sure why. I'm a control freak. We know why. 

CW: I'm just sitting here thinking, Susan, 'cause you've told me all the different places you've lived throughout the country and outside the country as well. And I'm thinking, I know you've lived in Seattle. SH: Mhmm.  

CW: And I know you've lived in Florida. And I'm just thinking about like, you have lived at literally [00:10:00] like, opposite physical ends of the United States of America. And I just think, what a metaphor that must be for your life. You've lived on the left side of the country, the right side of the country, and everything in between. And I mean, as someone who's lived in Provo, her whole adult life, I've had the same, we still have a landline, okay. I've had the same landline phone number for 30 years. [laughing] And then I look at your life. And I'm a little bit jelly of all the things that you've got to experience. And I know, of course there's a really hard side to that, 'cause you just got finished saying that you kind of resisted a lot of that change. But anyway, I'm just sitting here thinking of that metaphor of your life, both ends of the country. 

SH: But here's the thing, you know, if I had been left to my own devices, I would've chosen something much more like yours, I think. 

CW: The same phone number? Yeah. SH: I'm a pretty timid person. [laughing] Let's be honest.

CW: Yeah, that's good point. We have switched lives. 

SH: Yeah, exactly. I would've chosen something more like yours. And yet, I wouldn't give a single one of those moves back. I mean, they've made me the person that I am, you know. CW: Aha. SH: Being forced to grapple with some of those things, that are very much outside my comfort zone, has made me a larger person, and so I'm grateful for that.

CW: Yeah. And we're gonna get into that.

SH: Yes we are. I'm guessing for a lot of listeners, a shift in faith is one of the biggest changes that they've been through. And I think for you and for me also, even though neither of us mentioned that in our list, I mean, that's been a pretty big thing that we've been…CW: That's this whole podcast.

SH: That's the whole podcast. So, I'm gonna kind of use that as the baseline context for everything that we're gonna talk about today. Just because I think it will be applicable to, if not everyone, almost everyone who listens to At Last She Said It. So, I wanna start right here. I wanna start with a quote by Sharon Salzburg who says, “There is hope in the certainty that things do change.” 

CW: [laughing] It's kinda laughable, Susan, actually. 

SH: You think so? Say more about that. 

CW: Okay. Well, like, nobody hopes for change. Like we, I think we think of change mostly in a negative connotation. And so there's something funny about Sharon Salzburg who's all Buddhist-y, right? SH: Right. Literally, she’s like the most Buddhist that you can get. [laughing] 

CW: She is. Like, there's something humorous to someone like me who's maybe like Negative Nelly sometimes. Just thinking, oh, there is hope in this certainty that things do change, whereas some of us are digging in our heels going, never change, never change. And we'll get into that too.

SH: But think about it. Let's immediately shift context here to being on a faith journey. I think there is hope in the certainty that things do change in that context. CW: Mm. Mhmm. 

SH: That you will change, like that your relationship to this stuff, all the stuff you're struggling with, is going to change, that the church institution itself is going to change. I mean, there, there are places to find hope in that, but I agree. I mean, I love this quote because it reminds me that no matter how bad things are right now, change is always coming. It just is, right. But you're right, there is also real anxiety in this certainty that things do change and that they're not gonna stop changing because there's an unknown embedded in that sentence, right? CW: Yeah. Yeah. SH: And unknowns are scary and uncomfortable. I wrote this whole chapter at the end of our book called “Metamorphosis.” That is pretty much what started me down untangling my own relationship with change. It was actually putting that piece together that made me really start looking at it in my own life.

But one of the things that I realized about it and wrote about in that was that change carries with it, this insistence that we embrace the thing we haven't met. CW: Wow. SH: And I don't always wanna embrace things I don't know. That's really hard. You know, change is the force that pushes us forward without asking us whether we wanna move or not. We're often perfectly happy where we are. So change is this force that is animating our lives all the time, but pushing us forward, which is, like I said, with my moves. Good for us. You know, even when we don't wanna go. 

CW: Both and

SH: Both and 

CW: Good and hard. SH: And I'd say change might be the ultimate “both and”

CW: Yeah. And we'll get into that too. But I'm just sitting here thinking in terms of this conversation about change, how all of a sudden very happy I am that metamorphosis is the last chapter in our book, because I think it kind of culminates everything that we're trying to do on the At Last She Said It project.

'Cause you're right, everyone needs to accept Change 101, your mama was right. 

SH: Right. I hope it at least reflects some growth or movement for me through this journey that inspired our book. CW: Good job. Yeah. SH: You know, if nothing else, that's why it comes at the end, because it's close to where I am now at the time of that writing. So. CW: Beautiful. SH: But you know, as I think about it, hope and anxiety feel like opposites in the emotional spectrum to [00:15:00] me. Do they to you? CW: For sure. Yeah. Yeah. SH: And yet hope is an emotion that I, personally, I've talked about it a lot on our podcast. I've used it a lot in my life to defend against anxiety. Hope is like my anxiety shield, personally. And I hit on that as a young kid. I guess, maybe, because I had so much anxiety, I had to figure out a way to survive my own life. And for some reason, hope was there and I reached for it. And I was thinking about why that was, why hope felt available to me.

And maybe there is some kind of empowerment in just recognizing that idea that things could or should be better or different than they are. 

CW: Yeah

SH: Just knowing that things aren't right comes with some empowerment. 

CW: I love that you had to kind of lean into hope as a salve to your anxiety. And by anxiety you mean literal anxieties.

SH: Oh, yeah. I mean, literal anxiety, yeah. CW: Not just anxiousness here and there, which we all experience anxiousness. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say, we all experience anxieties as well, but I love that became a tool in your toolbox, maybe you didn't give the wording of hope to it early on? Or maybe you did? 

SH: No, I didn't. I don't think that I did, but I did come to understand that about myself pretty young. CW: Nice. 

SH: Pretty young. I knew that was a specific pivot that I could make, you know, from anxiety to hope. And so I learned to, I put things in my toolbox that helped me do that. But that's kind of the question I want to drive this conversation from here on out. How can we pivot from anxiety to hope? And I need to start by telling everyone that, you know, I don't mean a toxic positivity kind of hope or a wishful thinking kind of hope. When I say hope, 

CW: No, 

SH: That's not what I'm talking about. Because change can really suck Cynthia, [laughing] and you are not going to Pollyanna your way out of it. And you're not gonna force yourself to “learn something” using air quotes there or, you know, anything like that. But I do believe in hope as Krista Tippett describes it, “Hope as a muscle” right, as determination, or as an insistence that things can be different. 

CW: I have to say, Susan, that because you have talked quite a bit about hope on this podcast, the very first time, I don't even know when it was, whatever episode it was, where you quoted that line by Krista Tippett with hope as a muscle and how that kind of had become a theme in your life.I haven't stopped thinking about it either, because I don't think I was someone who ever really leaned into hope. So I'll notice, like, when I'm reading, when I'm listening to podcasts, when I'm like, when they start talking about hope, I go, aha. And I'm trying to link it to what you were talking about developing that muscle. And this happened to me just the other day. I was listening to, I just became aware of Dr. Jamil Zaki. I hope I'm pronouncing that right. And he's a Stanford professor who studies the neuroscience of empathy and kindness. And that's when my ears perked up. 'Cause not just, like, the sociology of empathy and kindness, but like in our brains, the neuroscience of it. And he says that people confuse hope with optimism. And I think that's kind of why you were just giving that disclaimer a minute ago SH: Ahh. Right. CW: About like, we're not talking about Pollyanna stuff here. Because he says that optimism is the belief that the future will turn out well. And optimists tend to be pretty happy, but they can also be a little bit complacent. And he goes on to say, so if you think a bright future is on its way, you can kind of just sit on your couch and wait for its arrival. Hope is different. Hope is the idea that the future could turn out well, or at least better than it is, but that we don't know. And there's the unknown part of change, right? SH: Right. CW: We don't know how this is going to end, but something about that. I just love, like the image. Well, literally, he said the words, like hope is what gets you off the couch. Like there's an activeness to it.

SH: Love that. Yeah. I think that's that empowerment I was talking about because when you put that, it could turn out well, or at least better than it is. It could, but we don't know. Well then doesn't that present an opportunity for you? 

CW: Right. And when I heard him use that metaphor of like, hope is what gets you off the couch, it reminded me of one of our favorite writers, Rebecca Solnit, and she actually has a book called “Hope in the Dark: the Untold History of People Power.”

I haven't read the book yet, but I want to, but I was aware of this quote where she says, “Hope is not a lottery ticket you can sit on the sofa and clutch feeling lucky. It is an ax you break down doors with in an emergency. To hope is to give yourself to the future. And that commitment to the future is what makes the present inhabitable.”

SH: So good. I think that's what Krista Tippett is talking about with the insistence that things could be different. CW: Yes. Right? [00:20:00] It's a commitment to the future. So when you ask that question, like, how do we pivot from anxiety to hope? For me, that's it - is to hope in the present that I give myself a future, even though I don't know what that future is. I give that to myself, and I'm gonna be annoying and quote our book. Well, you kind of already did quote our book, but in page 229 of our book I wrote this about grief: “When grief became my constant companion, I learned to eventually welcome her, to lean into all the big feelings of sorrow, to stop shoving grief away and pretending everything would eventually get better with just more time. It's okay to not be okay. Grief wouldn't be my constant companion, but she was a longtime companion.” 

SH: Mm. So good, Cynthia. 

CW: Well thank you. But I think even in those moments where we feel like nothing is going to change, nothing is going to get better, that insistence, that commitment, is when we're exercising that muscle. That's how I see it now. 

SH: The idea of giving myself a future might be my next bumper sticker. I give myself a future [laughing] that might be my next tattoo, I'm moving on from anyway. CW: The next tattoo you're not getting, yeah. Give yourself to the future.SH: I give myself a future. Yeah. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Thank you for that._____

SH: Hope can also simply feel like awe at our lives, you know, and our experiences, and like, gratitude for our own endurance. When I look back at my own life, you know, I can see that there's actually a lot about me that responds pretty well to hard things. CW: Oh, nice. SH: I didn't know that about myself. I thought that I was kind of helpless in the face of hard things. It has felt like that to me. It's felt really hard to be me, Cynthia. But I think that each of us, as we look back over our lives, are gonna see a lot of evidence that we're survivors. 

CW: I like that, Susan, because I am, I'm thinking as a woman in your sixties, you can, you probably have plenty to look back on now. And see that, “I responded well to adversity, actually.” 

SH: Yeah. I'm still here. 

CW: Yeah, you're still here. SH: [laughing] So I must have.CW: yeah, you must have. There you go. That's pretty basic. 

SH: Uh-huh. It's pretty basic. But it hasn't always felt that way to me. Like, I haven't always been sure that I was still gonna be here, you know?

CW: Right. SH: So it's helpful to look at my own life CW: Yes! SH: And have a little awe over it. CW: Good job, Susan. SH: Over that chain of experiences and how I navigated them. 

CW: Yeah. I guess I can see the same in myself as well, so that's good. I like that. I just read another, by another great thinker, Parker Palmer. He has his own substack now, right? SH: He does, yes. CW: He's amazing. I mean, and for those who don't know, Parker Palmer is a Quaker, a writer and activist and educator. So I mean, he does it all. He says all the great things and in one of his recent posts, he was speaking of the insistence that you name in your definition of hope, like he actually agrees with Dr. Jamil Zaki that I just quoted earlier, that cynicism and idealism, which I'm just gonna rename idealism, like toxic positivity. Like, kind of how they're the same and Parker Palmer says, “Cynicism and idealism sound like polar opposites, but they have the same effect. They take us out of the action and leave us on the sidelines of history. Our calling is to keep standing and acting in the tragic gap where history is made, putting one foot in front of the other in the long, slow walk toward a better world.” And I love that he names that, that's his own phrase. He coined the tragic gap, and that's his definition of kind of that space between what is and what could be. And it's a really heartbreaking space. Like, I'm sure listeners are hearing this right now, going, oh yeah, this, we've talked about it maybe like that waiting room or the hallway. Is that what we've kind of called it before, right? 

SH: The liminal hallway? Yeah.

CW: Or the tragic gap is what Parker Palmer says.

SH: Love that phrase! The tragic gap. 

CW: Well, it's pretty tragic. It's pretty tragic. 

SH: It is pretty tragic, but it's also, there's also possibility there because it's this place where it's like, to me, the tragic gap is the place sitting right in front of you. It's how we're gonna get from where we are right now to where we're gonna go. And so, yeah. That’s a really interesting phrase. 

CW: I know. I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna add that to my collection. 'Cause forever we just keep saying the liminal hallway, which is true 'cause I love the metaphor of a hallway, like you're just wandering up and down the hallway, not sure which door to open, but something about the tragic gap [00:25:00] when something has changed this cosmic tectonic shift in your life, but you haven't gotten to where you hopefully want to be and will get to be.

It is this gap. It is this, like, ravine or canyon in between. SH: That's what I was just gonna say. It's a huge chasm that opens up in front of you, and here you are on this side of it. CW: Right. SH: How are you gonna get to that side of it? That feels like a tragic gap to me. 

CW: Yeah, it really does. But anyway, that just reminded me about that tragic gap. It sounds like what you were just talking about that adversity, you know, it’s about the navigation. Navigating change. Like that's the active part. Dang it. 

SH: Yeah. That's it. The navigation part is moving into that gap.

CW: Mhmm. And embracing that's where you are. Sh: The heartbreaking part is you don't always have a lot of control. And so that can feel pretty demoralizing. But moving into it anyway, is active navigating. Man, I love it. And you don't have a lot of choice. You're gonna get forced into that gap. You're gonna get pushed into it eventually. CW: Correct. SH: You can eat Doritos in the hallway for a long time, Cynthia. 

CW: [laughing] My love language. 

SH: You and I both know, but eventually you're gonna have to open the next door. Man, Parker Palmer speaks truth to my heart again and again. If you're not following his substack, do it. It's good stuff. Okay. So we've established that we can't control change. We really can't, usually even when we do choose it, we can't always control all of the consequences of the choice that we've made, right. But we do have control over our orientation to the change.

CW: That's a good word. SH: And so that's kind of what I wanna move into talking about next. It has occurred to me that all of the ways we try to protect ourselves from change actually distance us from life. 

CW: That feels true. 

SH: Hanging out in that hallway and refusing to move is not really living with presence in your life.

Sometimes you need to hang there for a while, you know? 

CW: Sure. SH: I understand all the ways that we protect ourselves, we all do it, and it's useful because it gives you time to sort of gather your resources and whatever else. But eventually, the idea is that you're going to step into your life with presence for what is actually happening.

I have a friend who says that his antidote to anxiety is reality, no matter how unpleasant the reality is. He's like, give it to me straight. He means that, you know, the unknowns and the what ifs are really miserable and he is right. And they often can take on these outsized proportions in your brain.

CW: Yeah. They do. SH: Like the what ifs can really get big sometimes and feel like you can't possibly overcome them. But there is empowerment in understanding reality. It's like, once you see clearly what you're dealing with, even if it's really bad, then you can begin to formulate your plan for surviving it. I think about this in my own life. I think about some of the health challenges that I've had and how hard it's been getting to a diagnosis. And the diagnoses have not always been great. SH: They haven't always been something that you would want. [laughing] CW: Nope. SH: But there was enormous relief and some power in getting to that place where I could at least have the reality of what I was dealing with in front of me and start to think about how I'm gonna move through it. Anxiety occurs naturally, of course. But fear, dang, it always comes back to fear, doesn't it? CW: Always. SH: Fear is resistance to anxiety. That's an important difference. CW: Oh my. SH: An important difference. Because anxiety isn't really the thing that immobilizes you. It's fear. CW: Wow, Susan. SH: That immobilizes you. It's your resistance to feeling and acknowledging and being willing to sit with that anxiety.

CW: Yeah. SH: That's what keeps us braced against change, and that is what robs us of presence for what is happening. If we're so braced against what might happen, then we're completely missing what is happening. CW: Dang, that’s good. 

SH: But if we allow ourselves to just feel the anxiety. To be present to our own feelings and to the reality that is accompanying those feelings, then we can stay open to whatever opportunity the change presents to us.

And “opportunity feels like hope.” I put that in bold letters in our notes. Because to me that's the headline. Sorry to bury the lead for everyone who's listening. But opportunity feels like hope. And this doesn't mean that change is no longer anxiety-inducing, but I think that this is what Sharon Salzberg was getting to.

CW: Yeah. SH: That you can find hope in it by pivoting your orientation to it. 

CW: Mhmm. SH: What's that old saw? I don't know. I saw it on a fridge magnet the other day. Something about you can't control the wind, but you can adjust your sails or whatever. You know, it was something that's, it was something like that.CW: That’s cute. 

SH: But that's what I mean by orientation to it. You can [00:30:00] change how you're heading into that change. 

CW: I really like that. The orientation. 

SH: Yeah. 

CW: To it. ‘Cuz either way you're gonna face it, but you can kind of pivot your body a little bit to how you face it head on. 

SH: I think it does even get down to the level of your body because it's like, are you braced against it or are you willing to feel and experience what's happening?

CW: I love when we have conversations like this, but I always get a little, I always get a little nervous that I'm like, I hope our listeners aren't picking up that we're like, I mean, you already addressed the fact we're not gonna Pollyanna this. We're not gonna do toxic positivity. But even just talking about these kinds of things, sometimes I feel myself going, oh my gosh, I hope nobody is thinking we're like, yay! Change! [laughing] Because how often does anyone, when navigating, I mean specifically our audience, SH: Never. CW: Navigating faith changes, say, “oh, goodie. An opportunity.” Like nobody ever. 

SH: Yeah, nobody does. Although, I was thinking, I once heard David Steinle Rust say, “Each catastrophe is also an opportunity.” And I wrote it down because it was so ludicrous to me. So no one thinks that way. I mean, a monk thinks that way. CW: [laughing] He doesSH: [laughing] But no one in the real world thinks that way. But he was making the point that, you know, opportunity is the thing that can help us to be grateful in every circumstance. And he is very clear to say, not grateful for the hard thing. Not grateful for the circumstance, right? 

CW: Yeah. SH: But grateful for the opportunity that it's gonna bring with it. But that's why he gets to be on Bing, and we don't, Cynthia, because real people do not think that way, including me, I do not think that way. [laughing] Yay. Change. CW: But we can admire people who do and actually say, wow, is that…Could there be truth to that? SH: Right? CW: And could I lean into living that way in my own life? SH: Absolutely. CW: I mean it, it goes, I'm gonna, can I quote Parker Palmer again from that same Substack, which we will link to, but he says, “When I take all of it in, the darkness and the light, take it in mindfully with full focus on the here and now. It helps make my heart supple enough to absorb and transform whatever life may bring.” So that doesn't sound toxic positivity-ish to me at all. That, to me, sounds like the orientation that you're talking about. And I mean, obviously we've talked so much on this podcast about the growth zone, but I really like how Parker Palmer specifically mentioning that suppleness of the heart, like maybe I should call the growth zone, like, stretching the heart zone instead. That sounds more positive to me. SH: Oh my gosh. CW: Like, growth zone sounds a little like a downer. 

SH: I love that so much! CW: Yeah, he's good. SH: Soft heart, Cynthia, soft heart. Where have we heard this idea before? That our hearts are supposed to be softened. CW: Mm. SH: Interesting when I put it in the context of a faith journey, because I think that I suspected that I was gonna be accused of having a hard heart when I started to change direction, you know, CW: Yes! Sh: And struggle with some beliefs and reevaluate things. Actually, maybe I was doing it just right._____

SH: Well, being open to opportunity can also be a way to take hold of whatever change it is that we're facing instead of just letting something happen to us, you know, we take a more active role in navigating it. And here, I wanna pivot to Rabbi Lawrence Kushner. We are bringing in ideas from all different wisdom traditions, which I love.CW: Mhmm. 

SH: Rabbi Lawrence Kushner, I heard a whole conversation of him talking about this, and he said, “What can I do to redeem even this? This terrible thing, whatever it is, what is holy in it? I will keep working at it and that is how I can free myself from it.” I think that's as aspirational as David Standal Rest, actually. But also it feels true because as you know, one of my favorite scripture stories ever is Jacob wrestling with the angel. And this is exactly that part of the story where Jacob refuses to let the angel go without a blessing. Right?

CW: Yeah. SH: He won't stop wrestling with it, without a blessing. And I'm reading a book right now by a woman named Debbie Thomas. It's called “A Faith of Many Rooms.” And I came across this quote in it last night and she said, “Sometimes the spiritual life is about little more than encountering a God who feels mysterious, nameless, opaque, bewildering, and [00:35:00] frightening, and then hanging on for dear life.

“Sometimes the whole of Christianity comes down to saying, there's so much I can't wrap my head around, but I know that there's a blessing in this mess somewhere. I will hang on until I find it.” 

CW: Wow. SH: That's wrestling. With change. With the angel, you know, with whatever it is that life is presenting you with.

CW: I wish we defined these. Well, here's another way to define the liminal hallway or the tragic gap is just calling it the wrestle. SH: Yes. CW: Yeah. All of this as you're quoting, Rabbi Kushner and I went back and listened to that episode, we'll link to it as well. Oh my gosh. Yeah. He doesn't think like regular humans like us, right, Susan? SH: Right. CW: But I can aspire to that, but it all reminds me of another rabbi and how many times have we tossed around Rabbi Steve Litter's quote on here as well, like “if you have to go through, hell don't come out empty handed.” 

SH: We could have just said that, actually. CW: We could have just said that. 

SH: It could have been a shorter conversation. CW: Right. Because, none of us is gonna avoid the change and I'm so aware, again, of like putting any type of Pollyanna spin on anything, but somehow that is the best antidote to that I've ever heard is like, look, you're gonna have to go through hell anyway. So just grab a few…

SH: Something. 

CW: Yeah. Grab something on the way out. So. SH: Great stuff. Okay. All of that being said, and we've already said a lot. The key to navigating transition well, it seems to me, must be to hold change lightly. You know, my famous three word prayer, Cynthia, “Open my hands.” I'm still praying it.

CW: Oh gosh. SH: Because it hasn't been cemented in me behaviorally yet. But yeah, open my hands. Let me hold change lightly. And I was wondering about like, what does that mean? And I was thinking about, sort of like holding something really fragile, maybe like holding a flower. You know, if you close your hand, you're gonna crush it, right?

CW: Gonna crush it. SH: But you can acknowledge change while allowing it to unfold naturally. Without really attempting to exert control. I mean, good luck with that. Look, I'm speaking from someplace far ahead of where I actually am in the evolutionary process. [laughing]

CW: Yes, both of us. SH: But one could do this without attempting to exert control. So like, holding change lightly to me means living with presence and accepting, even expecting, the ebb and flow of life and then keeping ourselves oriented toward growth, you know, no matter what's going on underneath our feet. And it can get pretty shifty. 

CW: I love that about presence. Like I, I think that's what I meant earlier, just when I was describing leaning into change or trying to be curious, you know, as we're going through things, grabbing something on the way out of hell is that curiosity, right, of saying, you know, there has to be something to this. What can I learn from this? It's funny, I just returned from a trip from Seattle where my little 18 month old grandson, Ezra, he's into picking flowers.

Thankfully, there are a lot of dandelions, so, you know, that's okay, right? SH: Right. 

CW: But sometimes we would be walking past people's yards and he's like, wanting to pick their flowers, and it's like, no, no, no! But I just, as I'm just walking with this adorable little baby, just the present, just being in that moment with him, like he sees something beautiful and he wants it, and he grabs these little flowers in his little baby fists, and he holds them for as long as he can or as long as he needs to.

And then he just kind of drops it and he keeps going, and then he grabs more. The next one. Yeah, and I just keep thinking about that, like I need to be more that way. Like grab all the good things, hold onto them as long as I need to. Anyway, they just kind of help you get through those shifty spaces. But your three word prayer, open my hands. It reminds me of my two word prayer, which is just help me, which is kind of the same thing in a way. I mean, it's just acknowledging like I, I've reached the end of what I know. 

SH: Well sometimes life is too short for three-word prayers, and so I think a two-word prayer might be even more useful. [laughing] Cynthia, that's perfect. Maybe I'm gonna switch. 

CW: There you go. Well, I'm a little less evolved than you. I can only do two words sometimes. So you do the three words you do here. 

SH: You’re 10 years less evolved, Cynthia. CW: Yeah. Yeah. SH: So good for you. Enjoy every second of that evolution that's coming your way. CW: I shall. SH: I'll watch it with great interest. Okay. Change is a necessary component to growth. No change, no growth. That is the sad truth of it. Our circumstances change and then we are changed, right? I was listening to Roberta Bondi the other day and she was talking about wisdom being like liquid in your cup, like you become full because there's only so much space in the cup.

So something has to bump the table to make space for more and new knowledge or wisdom, and I loved that idea. It was such a simple image to me of what life has done. Life [00:40:00] is one table bump after another. And I've been spilled about a million times. CW: Yeah. SH: But every time I get spilled something new comes in to fill that space for me. It really does. I can think of, I can't really think of changes in my life that I've been through that I would give back. I can think of experiences that wouldn't be necessarily the way that I wanted to get to that wisdom, you know, that hard-earned knowledge that I have as a result of the experience. But I, it probably the way that I did it was as good as any other, if you see what I mean. I’m not sure I would have grown as much from changes that I had been allowed to choose myself, unfortunately, I needed something to bump the table. 

CW: I like that idea of a table bump, like this external force. I mean, you did start out this conversation saying sometimes the changes are ones that we choose, 

SH: Right?

CW: It's still hard. SH: Yes. CW: But I think for most of us, like, the really hard part comes when those are external bumps that are dumping things out of our cup and in my experience. And tell me if you agree. I mean, we've been in this faith space a long time. We've heard thousands of stories.

Family is often that biggest external force and Mormons have really big families. SH: Right? CW: So there are a lot of bumps, [laughing]

SH: Lots of opportunities to be bumped. [laughing]CW: There are a lot of bumping opportunities. And so, I mean, the one thing, this is just, we could list dozens here, but when I think of this faith space and families being that external bump, it's often, like, a child coming out as queer.SH: Mhmm. 

CW: It's something that nobody went looking for, anticipating, nothing. It's just, this is your child and you love them to bits, and now there's this bump that happened where you're like, okay, now, how am I gonna orient myself towards this big change that's come to our family? It's probably one of the biggest ones you and I hear about, at least.

SH: Well, it's been a big one in your own life. Am I right about that? CW: Yeah. Yeah. SH: And then when something like that happens, a bump in your family like that, then it throws change onto everything. A lot of other things. A lot of other things get wet as the liquid flies out of that cup, you know?

CW: [laughing] That's true. That is true. SH: So one, one thing to deal with, you know, ends up being 42 different changes that you're going through. 

CW: Well, yeah. It's the whole sweater metaphor. You pull the thread and it just keeps unraveling all the other threads. Yeah. Everything touches everything else in our faith lives, that's for sure.

SH: Exactly. Everything touches everything else in our lives. CW: Well, yes. SH: There's something I wish that my second grade teacher had taught me._____

SH: Okay, Cynthia. Change and being changed are different though. Like, part of what has made this, that this having a child come out as queer, so transformational in your life in my observation, is that you have allowed yourself to be changed by that in some ways, right? CW: That's a good point. You could dig in your heels.

SH: It's…I think a lot of families do. 

CW: Yeah. Sadly. 

SH: You know, I think a lot of families do. That's, that bracing, you know, against change that we were talking about that makes them miss being present for what's actually happening in their family. CW: Yes, yes. SH: Yeah. But, you know, one of those things is guaranteed to happen to us no matter what. That's change. But the other thing requires things of us, and that's being changed. It's sort of that old idea that I first got from Richard Rohr about, you know, nobody wants change, but everyone wants transformation. CW: [laughing] 

SH: Right? And it occurs to me as I was thinking about this as Christians, we should always be seeking a fundamental change of heart, that softening of heart, you know, that we were talking about. But I think for Latter-Day Saints, there are all kinds of reasons that even that kind of good change feels scary. Even that desirable change feels really scary. CW: Yes. SH: You know, because it's like the slippery slope. If you accept grace, you know, then where's the love madness going to end? CW: Oh my gosh. SH: Once you start embracing that. And so it, it seems counterintuitive, but I think that Latter-Day Saints are often resistant to being changed. Even in good ways. 

CW: Love madness. That's good, Susan, [laughing] because I really think you're right. I really think the LDS folks like, well, if I accept grace, then that means there are no rules left. You know? This is madness here. Yeah. I mean, oh my gosh. We've heard it all so many times in so many different, phrased in so many different ways. It's just such an eye roll moment for me now, our fear of grace. 

SH: Well, and I think we can't help but, bless our hearts, 

CW: Bless our hearts SH: Part of what complicates a faith journey for someone who's been in a high-demand religion or who is trying to navigate remaining in a high-demand religion, part of what complicates that is that we feel like we're wrong for changing. CW: Mhmm. SH: Like, change feels wrong to us, [00:45:00] and that is just not a way, that's not a realistic way to live any part of your life but especially your faith life. Right. If I'm not moving, I'm dead, so. CW: Yeah. SH: Okay. Let's talk about reasons that we might resist being changed by change. I thought of a few things. Like, one is that the initial change is not positive. Like you have a health crisis, you have a relationship end, you lose your job. You know, you have a parent die, you know, whatever major thing comes into rock your world, that's not positive. So it's really hard to accept the idea that there could be positive consequences at some point of what has happened. It's pretty hard to open yourself to that in the moment. In the moment. Like, you're allowed to stand in front of that tragic gap, I think, for as long as you need to. 

CW: Yeah, grieving is real. 

SH: Yeah, grieving is real. 

CW: Yeah. 

SH: But being willing to step forward into that gap is gonna require you to, at least on some level, accept that life is gonna go on and you'll be changed by what has happened. And that that could be a good change. That could be a good change. Fear of the unknown. Here I would like to point out that we're not required to believe our own fear, Cynthia. And I want to also say, I'm going to acknowledge right up front that I have believed every single fear that I have ever had [laughing] 

CW: I was just gonna say more about that. Susan. Did you learn that in therapy? Did you finally just at exhaustion say that to yourself? Like, I don't know. SH: It was exhaustion. Yeah, I've told you before, I just got tired of being afraid eventually in my life. Yeah. You know, and that was in my fifties, that I was just like, I'm so tired of the energy that this takes. I gotta stop believing some of these fears. But anyway, just 'cause your brain says it to you does not mean that you are required to believe it. Another thing I thought of is that old habits die really hard. Our habits are ingrained sometimes from birth, basically. And, you know, we cling to those identities, right? We cling to those stories. And to be changed is gonna threaten that story. You're gonna have to tell yourself a different story, including maybe going back and revising, you know, what you thought about all of the other things that have happened in your life leading up to this moment. And that's hard. That's hard. That's part of what I was writing about in that chapter Metamorphosis, is that my stories are changing and that has been really hard for me to allow. This stuff is ingrained really deep. 

CW: Okay. But as you're rattling off this list of reasons we resist change, my LDS brain is sitting here going, can you blame us?

SH: No. [laughing] CW: Like in my defense, like you were just saying, like we've been taught this since we were infants. Like in Primary, like I was taught that I can be immovable. Immovable, Susan, like the scripture in Alma, like stand fast in the faith, you know, they were steadfast and immovable, in keeping the commandments of God. They bore with patience. Anyway, just, you know, that idea of standing fast and being immovable, maybe I absorbed the lesson incorrectly, but I absorbed that as, you can stand your ground here and never be moved. SH: Mhmm. CW: And we see so many people come into this faith space where they're faced with the liminal hallway or the tragic gap, whatever metaphor we're using. And we think, like you said earlier, we've done something wrong. 

SH: Right. 

CW: Because I should have been steadfast and immovable. Maybe that's just me, because that's exactly what happened to me. SH: I don't think so. CW: That's my defense here. 

SH: No, I don't think it's just you because I, my next point on this list as I'm looking at it is like sometimes we truly don't believe that core change is possible. And in the reason, I think that's what you're talking about is what you were taught is if you are doing it right, you'll be immovable. So it's not possible for me to be doing this another way and be doing it right, right? CW: Yes. SH: It may not seem possible that really fundamental parts of ourselves can change and that will be okay. And maybe not only okay, but good. Right? CW: Maybe better. SH: Maybe better. Maybe better. I know that's hard to admit. Let's not get carried away. And then the last one that I thought of is, we don't know how to make ourselves available to change. Like, how do you make that pivot? That can be really hard. CW: That's good.

SH: It can be really hard. 

CW: Do you feel like, like in our church…Have you ever heard a lesson on like, making yourself available to change? I mean, I just got through saying like, steadfast and immovable, so I don't feel that’s something we do so well. 

SH: Absolutely not. [laughing] Ok, well, I mean, seriously, I think that there is no heart that's more stubborn to change than an LDS heart. I really do think we're bred for that. 

CW: [laughing] That’s harsh, Susan. 

SH: [laughing] Yeah. Well, it hadn't occurred to me till this moment, but I really do believe [00:50:00] it. Like we are encouraged, I'm gonna use the word encouraged, to stand fast, to stake out our claim and be there no matter what happens. No matter what fiery darts, right, the adversary may throw at us?

CW: Right. SH: We do not move for fiery darts. So I think we get hearts that are the very opposite of supple. 

CW: Yeah. I mean going along with fiery darts, you know, and we can withstand them. We can be steadfast and immovable. Like I also thought of that, Helaman 5 scripture too, like a sure foundation we're on. If we build, we cannot fall. SH: Right, right. CW: Okay. So if we're talking about like the fear and the fear of change, and this is just for me, this is what happened to me, but whenever I would hear stories about, like, people who had left the church, I was really interested in the why, because somehow if I could understand the why, then I could ensure that wouldn't be me. Well, I'll just make sure I never, whatever, stop paying tithing. I'll just make sure I never like go to a rated R movie or whatever. I don't know. I mean, that's silly. I don't know if anyone leaves the church over that, but I'm just saying that I was always really intrigued when I would hear someone left the church. I'd be like, well, why? What happened? SH: Right. It must have, they must have been doing something wrong, 

CW: Right? They must have been sinning. They must not have been steadfast and immovable. What was the reason they couldn't withstand the fiery darts? That's where my fear was in all of that was, well, I have to just make sure that never happens to me.

Therefore, I need to understand why they left, so I can kind of like build that up around me. So, I mean, I don't wanna pick on those scriptures too much because I think there is a way to nuance those scriptures. I think there's a way to nuance, like steadfast and immovable all those good things. So I'm not discounting those scriptures. But I guess what I'm trying to do is discount the black and whiteness of how they were taught to me or maybe the way I just absorbed them. Because it was very black and whitey. SH: Yeah, and I think you did because you were taught those scriptures in this overarching context of black and whiteness, and so that influences how you absorb the teachings that were coming your way.

CW: Yeah. 

SH: So I mean, it totally makes sense to me. I think it's you and basically every other member. I mean, not everyone, 

CW: Well thank you, SH: But you know, the majority, we're all learning those scriptures within that larger context. And it makes it hard to have a lot of nuance sometimes._____

SH: Okay. Last section I wanna move to talking about helpful orientations toward change. So how can we set those sails? And the first one that I thought of was transcend and include. Transcend and include is something that I've only become aware of, a principle I've only become aware of in the past few years. I wish I'd known it much earlier, but it's the idea of this process of growth where new stages of development incorporate or build upon previous stages of development rather than simply replacing them. Right? And so the thing that I like about it, the implication is that we can give old things honor and recognition in this growth process, even as we move away from them.

And I think in a faith journey that is particularly important. I think it's huge because so many people think, well, if I'm not that, then I'm this. Well, you can be this and that, right? CW: Good. SH: You can honor all of the previous spiritual experiences that you may have had while maybe changing the way that you think about spiritual experiences going forward or the way that you experience them. I mean, both of those things can be true. You don't have to throw out everything that you have had before. CW: Right. SH: In order to move to the next place in your life. It all belongs. 

CW: Do you think we do that well, the transcend and include, and I mean, I think I know the answer, no, but why can't we, why can't we look at something and just say, that served me well, but now I need different nourishment? 

SH: I think LDS people are particularly vulnerable to being the worst at transcend and include when they move into a space of different knowing, we'll call it, than anyone I can think of. And it's because of that black and white overarching paradigm. CW: Yeah. SH: That I was talking about. When you're raised to think it's all black and white, then it's hard to move from, you know, without, it's hard to allow yourself to move without throwing out the old black and white. 

CW: We take the black and whiteness with us.

SH: Yes. CW: And just like flip, flip it to the other side. SH: Yes. That's a better way to say it than the way I did. That makes more sense. We need to remember where we've been and what we've survived, actually, because that can inform, that will [00:55:00] inform where we are and where we go next. I mean, it absolutely will. There's no way to escape where you've been, you know, as you prepare to move to the next place, it's part of you. So you may as well acknowledge it and just leave room in your suitcase for that. It's coming with you. You might figure out a way to unpack it and set it down eventually, but there's probably a lot in it that is worth preserving because it's the context in which, you know, you continue to live your life.

David Benner, who is a psychologist and author that I've been reading lately, he says this: “This was the way in which I came to know that everything in my life belongs, that every part of my story has made important contributions to who I am.” 

CW: That's it. 

SH: That's it. 

CW: That's really good. As you're talking about that, I'm thinking, well, first of all, that's crazy talk, right? To transcend and include, but also I'm thinking that really is the more mature way, and I don't mean that negatively. Like, oh, if you can't do this, you're immature. Like I just mean as someone who's, you know, in my fifties now, like, why am I barely getting this? Because I'm with you on the transcend and include. Such and such served me really well and doesn't now. SH: Now it doesn't. CW: And I can hold both of them, but I'm barely doing that probably in the last couple of years. So I'm not picking on people saying, oh, well that's just an immature way. I just think, if you're never taught that and you're gonna have to go scratch that out on your own by reading people like David Benner and others, that's hard. That's really hard to come to that on your own. 'Cause the church is never gonna teach us that it's okay that things once worked and don't anymore. SH: Right. And understandably so, you know that the church is not gonna teach you thatCW: That's not their business.

SH: Exactly. Exactly. You know, I first heard about transcend and include from Richard Rohr, of course. CW: Yes. Same. SH: And I, it probably went right over my head for about five years. CW: Yeah, me too. SH: And then one day those words came to my mind for some reason, who knows. And I went back to try to find, where did Richard talk about that? And you know, what was he saying? And I think it's because I was kind of ready for that principle, ready to onboard it and figure out what to do with it and figure out if I could, is that even gonna be possible for me? But you're not, you can't take in everything at once, so..CW: Correct.

SH: So, if transcend and include feels really overly aspirational and in fact ridiculous to you at this point in your life, I hear you. CW: [laughing] Set it aside. SH: Yeah, just set it aside. And but in my own life, if Richard Rohr talks about it enough, eventually I start to leave room for the possibility that it may be something worth reaching for.

CW: It might be good. SH: That's just what I've learned from Richard. The next thing I thought of is curiosity. Oh, curiosity is so huge. Cynthia. We can't talk about it enough. CW: I couldn't. Yeah. SH: It's so good. Curiosity can help calm our fear response and shift our focus. It just sort of changes what you're thinking about and the way you're thinking about it, right? It encourages us to approach challenges with that growth mindset, right? We're gonna learn from this and explore about it. Just thinking about something in a more active and empowered way, really. And it occurred to me that, like, we don't actually fear the unknown. We fear what we think we know about what we don't know, if that makes sense. We fear what we think we know about the unknown. And I was thinking about like women who are afraid to take control of their own spirituality. CW: Yes. SH: I don't think they necessarily fear what they'll learn or experience as much as they fear how they're convinced others are going to react.

CW: Yes. 

SH: You know what I mean? It's like, what they think they know about what will happen actually is the greater fear than what actually might happen. CW: Nice. SH: Alan Watts, one of my all time favorite thinkers, says, “No amount of anxiety makes any difference to anything that is going to happen.” And I could have had that on my fridge every day of my life.

CW: I was gonna say, yeah. SH: And read it and, you know, as a way to start the day because it doesn't matter how much I worry about it I'm gonna be worrying about the wrong thing. 

CW: Well, if we're gonna talk about curiosity being one of those orientations towards change, like, have we never had an episode just called like, Curiosity?

SH: No. CW: Or how to be curious because I feel like that is, that's been the number one thing for me. And I can just see elements of my life where, oh, that horrible phrase, like, “the thinking has been done.” You know, that's about churchy things. And so I didn't put a whole lot of curiosity 'cause I was like, isn't this great? My life is so much easier. I don't have to worry about these things. People have already figured it all out. I mean, I'm really embarrassed to say I thought that way once. So, curiosity is a big thing for me because it changed everything. All of a sudden asking all the questions that I never dared ask before.

Anyway, we could go, maybe we do need an episode just on curiosity, but we have talked about it enough. But I listened to a [01:00:00] podcast, Kelly Corrigan was on, I think it was on Soul Boom, and she said this phrase on there that I am stealing, and it is now my phrase that we have a real “conviction addiction.” And I was like, well, if that doesn't describe every Latter-day Saint I know, including me in my old days. Right? SH: Right. CW: Like, I had this conviction addiction because the thinking had been done, and I was convinced, and it really was an addiction. And the antidote, I think, to those tightly held convictions for me has, like, I was just saying, was curiosity. What if those scriptures in Alma and Helaman that we just talked about a minute ago had been taught to me, like, leaning into the curiosity of what they could mean instead of, this is what they mean. I mean, it goes back to, we had an episode on nuance. It's one of my favorite episodes we've ever done.

“The Color of Nuance.” And then we wrote about it in our book. And the question like, how do you raise people then, because I was not raised to be a nuanced thinker, but how could you raise children, you know, with awesome questions? Like, do you have all the info you need? Like, is there anything that might make you change your mind? Like, just those questions alone, had they been posed to me in my faith life could have made all the difference. SH: Yeah. Yeah. But that's teaching children how to think. CW: Yeah. SH: And the thinking has been done. So it's hard to relay both of those messages. And I think often in religion, we choose the second message, that the thinking has been done, so you don't need to.  

CW: Well, I get it. It's easy. It's so easy. As someone who was like, hallelujah, the thinking has been done. That's really comforting. I found a lot of comfort in that. So, yeah, curiosity. I couldn't talk enough about it. Let's move on. SH: We're totally having that episode in this season because I think it's crucial to any conversation about change. Curiosity's huge. CW: Okay. SH: And now we come to Cynthia's favorite word, which is willingness. And I was thinking about this, last summer I had the opportunity to be at this little amusement park with my grandkids and they all got on. They're, you know, they're very little. My, they were seven and under at that point, so little.

And so they got on one of those little kitty coasters, you know, those kitty roller coasters. CW: Cute. SH: But you could sort of see the personalities on display in that ride as we watched them go around, my husband and I were just laughing because you have the kind of person who is just like totally tensed, you know, and their face is terrified and they're hanging on the bar for dear life and then you have the person who wants to sit in the front car and they got their hands up. Right? They're here for it. So bring it. And like,

CW: So cute. SH: We saw the full array of behaviors. And I think that how we think about change generally, as a friend or a foe, might have an impact on our experience of it. You know, like, am I willing to let life do the stuff it's gonna do to me anyway? And am I willing to be changed? CW: Oh. SH: Willing is huge. 

CW: I've been rereading my favorite Richard Rohr book, which is “The Naked Now” probably because like the chapters are really tiny and so I can just like read it like as a quick devotional, you know, here and there.

But I was just rereading what he says about willingness and he talks about willfulness versus willingness, which perked up my Mormon ears 'cause I was like, oh yeah, I was very willful. Like he, he says that in the west, meaning like in western Christianity, like we would much rather learn by willpower or willfulness, that kind of, that tense brace, white knuckle, like you're just describing the rollercoasters, rather than the willingness of like, our arms are in the air. 

And that really hit me, like he, let me just read a quick paragraph from what he was saying about that. He said, “The need for willingness is counterintuitive for almost all Western people, especially the strong and the educated, who think that spiritual things can be achieved by intellect and willpower.

In fact, it will demand a severe detachment.” And that's kinda like your prayer, open my hands -  “a severe detachment from what you think is your intellect and you cannot get there by trying harder. This is a difficult lesson for most people, which is why Jesus called it the narrow path that few would walk.”

SH: Oh, so good. Severe detachment. Ooh, it feels pretty severe when fate is trying to pry my arms off the bar so that it can do the things that it's gonna do. Oh, man.  

CW: I know, sometimes I read what Richard Rohr writes and I was like, oh, he was writing this for an LDS audience only, but ya know. 

SH: Yeah. But this tells you that we're not the only ones. These are human problems, right? CW: Yeah. SH: And I love being reminded of that. CW: I feel that's comforting. SH: I feel stupid actually. Yes, it's comforting. [laughing] 

CW: Feels comforting to not be the only stupid people.

SH: Right. Okay, let's give a nod to ownership. Ownership, by which I mean going toward and into change, right? So this active versus passive orientation to it. When we go, you [01:05:00] know, toward change, willingly, we develop a personal, kind of a psychological bond with it, and the change becomes ours. 

CW: Oh, nice. 

SH: And I love that idea. It's like the difference between victimized and empowered. You know, I have observed two women that I know very well who have completely different approaches when things come up in their lives. Like, one of them throws up her hands helplessly and says, I don't know what to do. That's just like her go-to, that's the first thing that comes out of her mouth. I dunno what to do. Right? And the other doesn't say much, but dives in to find every possible resource available immediately. And I think both of those things are actually anxiety responses. Right? 

CW: Oh, yeah. SH: But I know which experience I'd rather be having of those two. I'd rather be having the empowered experience than the victimized experience. So taking some ownership of change can be really important. CW: That’s good. SH; And then I wanna give a nod here to patience, really more than a nod. I wanna give a full pause on the idea of patience because you and I have said a hundred times, if we could tell people moving into a space of some kind of shifting faith, one thing it would be to have patience with the process and with yourself. And I think that that applies to any change in our lives. Let it unfold, right? CW: Yep. SH: It's like doing a dot to dot. Change is gonna take you on a journey without revealing where you're going immediately. And trying to dictate or control what happens and when it happens is gonna make you miserable. And you can ask me how I know, because I've spent my life trying to control what happens and when it happens. CW: Wow. SH: And it's a pretty miserable way to live. I'm trying to learn better ways. All this stuff I talk about, Cynthia, is only because I'm trying to learn a better way and a more comfortable way, and a more grow-y way of being.CW: Mhmm. 

SH: I'm trying to learn peace for myself with this stuff. And I certainly was not born with it. So, I try to have patience. 

CW: As you're talking about patience. It just, you have to give yourself grace. You probably also could have called it, I could've said frace.

SH: Yeah. All the grace. CW: And I don't remember if Jana Spangler said this on our podcast or if she just said it to me because we're friends. But a really helpful tool, she says, is when all these things are bubbling up, give yourself the grace. Give yourself the patience by this one phrase. “Well, isn't that interesting?” Like, just observe all these things that are going on. Give yourself the grace and patience and go, huh, isn't that interesting? And that, of course, and that will lead you into curiosity as well. But I really like that. 

SH: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? feels like a good place to rest and catch your breath, to me, you know. 

CW: Exactly. Catch your breath in that patience of it. 

SH: Good stuff. All right, we've come to the end. We've gone way over any possible time that we should have gone, CW: [laughing] Sorry about the eight pages. SH: But it’s our season opener. You know, we wanted to present a broad net of context for everything that we wanna talk about this season. But the last thing that I want to give a nod to here is surprise. Leave room for surprise, Cynthia. Because stories have really neat endings, but changes do not have endings. CW: That's good. SH: Who knows where it will be when the change is over, but you know, even more basic, like who knows when it's over? Who knows when it's over. You can make a decision, you know, at 18, heck, you can make a decision at 11 or 6 that, you know, is gonna continue to throw off little micro changes in your life for the rest of your life. It's never over. So leave room for yourself to be surprised by change. I'm gonna let Sharon Salzberg give us the last serious quote that we have, and that is “What is happening in front of us is not the end of the story. It is just what we can see.” CW: Ah. 

SH: And we can't see very many things at one time. CW: Yeah. SH: You know? CW: Yeah. SH: We're operating from a pretty limited lens most of the time. See exactly what's right in front. CW: That's a good reminder. SH: Yeah, it's a good reminder when you're facing change. So anyway. Okay, I could not resist throwing a line from Marty Kaplan here on the end. And that is that “Man plans. God does stand up.” God does not care about your plans, Cynthia. God thinks your plans are a joke. [laughing] 

CW: Oh my gosh. Susan, I want you to go into LDS.org and Google that, like, you know, “God doesn't care about your plans.” 'Cause I'm positive that is not a lesson in any of our curriculum at all.SH: [laughing]

CW: We are the most plan-ny people ever. SH: Okay, well look at your life and see what it thinks about that quote. CW: Oh, I know. SH: I have a feeling that your life is gonna applaud that quote. I don't know. CW: That's good. SH: I've [01:10:00] certainly felt the truth of it in my life, so, so happy to be back talking about things with you. Maybe I'll get better. CW: This is good. No, I'm so glad that we kind of set this anchor down to talk about change ‘cause I could already see like 15 conversations I want to have as a result of just this one conversation. And so I'm excited to dig into the navigating change part for this season.

SH: Yeah, same. I'm so actively working on this principle in my own life right now. I really do feel like a warrior for change. So, that's what we're gonna talk about. We hope that you'll join us._____

Voicemail: Hi, Susan and Cynthia. This is Lisa. I just wanted to leave a quick voicemail about the feelings I have regarding patriarchy in the church. It has come to a point where I do not want my husband to give me any sort of healing blessings or anything, any other priesthood blessings because I can't do the same for him.

And if he were ever in a position where his life was in jeopardy or we're at a hospital, my prayers would have to just be enough. And I refuse to worship a God who says that because I'm a woman, my prayers are not enough and I have to instead reach for intercession from some mortal male down the street.

Once you see the patriarchy in the church, you can't unsee it. I don't know where I'll go from here in terms of my church attendance. But I just want to worship a God that hears my prayers and I don't, I shouldn't have to have a middleman for that. _____

Voicemail: Hi Susan and Cynthia. My name is Tina and I was so excited to see the bonus mailbag episode last week. I really miss the podcast. I was really struck by the story of the woman who tried to get the elder’s quorum involved with compassionate service and was told that it was embarrassing for the men. Because I had also recently listened to an episode on Dan McClellan's podcast talking about Jesus washing his apostles’ feet and how it was an act that he was putting himself in a lower social standing, demeaning himself.

And it made me think of that woman's story with working with the elders quorum that maybe they, it was embarrassing for the men because maybe some men couldn't cook, or maybe it was just embarrassing for men to be asked to do a quote unquote “lower status” task that is usually assigned to women._____

SH: Don't forget our website. Go to AtLastSheSaidIt.org to find all our substack content. While there, you can contact our team, leave us a voicemail, register for events, subscribe, or make a tax-deductible donation. Paid subscribers get extra stuff including ongoing community chats and live chats with us.

Remember, your support keeps the podcast ad-free. Thanks for listening._____

CW: Let me just hit stop if you're that nervous, I'll, do you want me to hit stop and then you can check your settings? I just wanna make sure that, 

SH: Well, I hear myself on this mic. It, I mean, it's sounds…

CW: You sound fantastic. 

SH: Well, okay. We're just gonna assume it's recording then. CW: Okay. Let's just, SH: I'm sorry about that.

CW: Let's just go, if we had to record it twice, then we'll just sound even more polished. But let's not, SH: Oh my gosh. We're not doing that. 

CW: [laughing] Okay. Well jump back in. Okay.