Episode 189 (Transcript) What About Sister Missionaries?
Episode Transcript
Many thanks to listener, Kayla Howell, for her work in transcribing this episode!
This episode can be found on any podcast app, or can be listened to here on Substack.
SH: Hi, I'm Susan Hinckley.
CW: And I am Cynthia Winward.
SH: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things. And the title of this week's episode is, ‘What About Sister Missionaries?’ Cynthia, I don't know a thing about being a sister missionary, not one single thing. So that is why we have invited a guest to help moderate this conversation.
And I say moderate because it's all of the listeners who called in to share all of their stories today. So, our guest today is Katie. Hi Katie.
Katie: Hi!
CW: Katie is one of our amazing people who helps us behind the scenes. If you've sent us an email, most likely Katie has read it and then passes them on to us.
So we're super grateful for that. Before we introduce Katie, how about we introduce our topic for the day? What do we mean when we say, what about sister missionaries? We've tackled this topic before, Susan. You have your amazing friend, Apple Landman, and she's a therapist. And I believe Apple works for LDS family services, counseling missionaries?
SH: Yes.
CW: So she was our guest and in our writeup, which was episode 103, here's just a snippet of what that episode was about. We said “the decision to serve, the realities of mission life, the possibility of returning home early, and the pressure to make big life decisions soon after a mission ends can all weigh heavily on young Latter-day Saints and their families.”
And then, here's a quote from Apple; “the reality of mission life, both pre- and post-mission is hard!” So we're just, how about we just carry that forward today because Apple had her therapist hat on for that episode. And she talked about all the complexities here, but today is extra special, because we had our listeners call in and talk about their own firsthand experiences being a missionary. So I'm really excited for that today. And right off the bat, we want to say we received more voicemails than ever, than on any other topic. So either we're getting more popular Susan, which that could be it. Or this is just a really sticky topic.
SH: I think this says something about the topic.
CW: Yeah, probably the latter. So the way we're going to structure today is— Bless you, Katie. She divided all of the voicemails into different categories. And then we had a lot more extra extra after that didn't necessarily fit in those categories and some that did, but we want to give everyone who called in a chance to tell her story.
So we're going to have a little Friday dessert episode this week, where we just have more and more voicemails for you all to hear more experiences from missionaries. So that's the plan for today. How's that?
SH: I think it sounds great. But what I want to know is why did we invite Katie? Tell us about yourself, Katie.
Katie: Well, after working together with both of you for years, it's great to be on the air with you guys today. This is awesome. I was a missionary. I was a missionary in the late nineties in South America. And it was a really, really positive experience for me. I mean, it was formative, and I can say, I feel like having done that, it changed my life for the better, made me a better person.
And to be clear, I really was lucky in my mission experience. My mission president was tailor-made for me. He was full of love, trust, flexibility. My mission as a whole was social, familial, everyone was very hardworking. It was just exactly the mission that I needed. And I know not everyone can say that, so I know that's a huge privilege.
So, while I do look back on my mission, my time as a missionary with incredible fond memories, the way I view the church has changed significantly since then. So, my feelings about missions are now quite complicated. On the one hand, I see how they have the potential to be very beneficial.
For me, they were. It was.
But on the other hand, I also see the many holes in the system, and I see specific ways that the missionary program as a whole could really be improved to be a more Christ-like experience for both the missionary and those who are [00:05:00] interested in learning about the church.
So, like both of you always say it is complicated, and in this case, for me, this is certainly no exception. So I'm really happy to be with you both to have this discussion.
SH: Well, I'm happy to have an expert on board.
Katie: Let's not get carried away.
CW: Well, compared to myself and Susan, you are the expert today.
SH: You’re the expert in the room.
Katie: Expert on complication.
CW: Well, hopefully we're all an expert on complication, but you're an expert on complication during missionary service or something. So we're so glad that you can help chime in on some of these voicemails we're going to share today.
Well, our first category we have is no surprise if we're going to be talking about sister missionaries.We're going straight to sexism and patriarchy. So we're, let's listen to our first voicemail from Shelly.
VM Shelly 1: When I served my full time mission it was still a requirement for girls to be 21, which created quite a bit of an age gap and as well as a life experience gap between the sisters and the elders.
And that was probably the biggest struggle of the mission overall. It was an amazing experience. I served in South America and I absolutely loved being among a new culture, speaking a different language, and just being involved in people's lives, serving them, loving them. Those were all amazing things that helped me grow in so many different ways.
I struggled a lot with the elders in my mission. There were a lot of problems. The sisters were all the most hardworking, most amazing women ever. And then we were constantly tasked with cleaning up after the missionaries. We'd clean their apartments after elders moved out.
We were constantly being directed and told what to do by 18 year old boys who... They really did lord their priesthood power over us in sometimes not very positive ways and I did not love that, and then at the end of our mission, our mission president would— I don't, I mean, I don't know if he said this to the boys too, but at least to the sisters, he would tell us that our next mission in life was to go get married. And I just was like, I'm going back to school.
CW: Well, something interesting that Shelly said is being lorded over and it wasn't always positive. And my question is, when is that ever positive? That doesn't ever sound like a good thing. The other thing I love, the phrase she used was life experience gap. There's not just an age gap between young men and young women who served missions.
I mean, it's a lesser gap now, but I loved that phrase. I thought that was really telling, but anyway. I'm really glad that we started right off with the number one thing I have always heard from women when they're willing to talk about the complicated things about being a missionary, it's that being bossed around by younger men, younger boys, whatever, is just really—
SH: I could not have survived it. I know that. I knew myself at that age. That just would not have happened in my life. I couldn't have done it. But I also want to just say, I just want to start right here with an acknowledgement that there is no good way to spin some of this stuff. Like that, like you said, when it's being lorded over, ever good, right?
There's no good way to spin young men being in authority over young women. And also when she tells the story about her mission president saying your next mission is to get married That sounds a hundred percent true to me like—
CW: Oh, yeah. I've always heard that.
SH: I am zero surprised that he would say that.
Those kinds of statements that in the context of kids lives now, to me sound pretty horrifying to say, right? But at the time that I was growing up? That's just the wallpaper of my LDS life. So that just doesn't surprise me at all. And so I'm going to just set that right down here at the beginning of the conversation and acknowledge that there's no good way to spin some of this stuff.
And so I'm just not even going to try to do that.
CW: I love Susan that you use that phrase, like the wallpaper to your church life or however you said it. Because if you think about wallpaper, it's just there on the walls and it's so hard to remove and it's just always there. And it's like the perfect backdrop to some of our childhoods. I can tell you right now some of the wallpaper patterns that were in my house growing up. And so I think that's a really good description of things that just seem 100 percent true. I mean, I went to BYU and the joke is that girls go to BYU to get their MRS degree.
I'm pretty sure they don't say that anymore.
SH: No. I heard that joke last week, Cynthia.
CW: What?
SH: One week ago.
CW: I take it all back.
SH: People still say it.
CW: Wow. Okay, more wallpaper that refuses to peel off the walls. Okay, very interesting. What are your thoughts Katie?
Katie: I think this message speaks volumes to our church's system, of just authority and patriarchy in general. You know a man who is younger than [00:10:00] the woman serving, giving her orders And those orders actually being obeyed even though it's begrudgingly.
I mean, I think if we look at patriarchy women and men are harmed by it. So in this case, we're focusing on the harm that the woman is receiving by this system. But I want to be clear too, I think that when these young boys start to learn that this is, quote unquote, what they do that also sets themselves up for some damaging messaging as they grow up. So I think this patriarchy exists and these kinds of experiences of the sister missionary being told what to do because of the priesthood, right. That creates an authoritative thing where if those exact same requests had been given outside of the context of church or missions, this woman, Shelly, would have laughed and moved on, right?
SH: Right.
Katie: She'd have been like, Oh you're ridiculous. Like I'm not even paying attention to this. But how great would it have been and will it be when sister missionaries start to just take a little bit more ownership back, right? How great would it have been if they had just explained why that request was completely inappropriate, why they aren't maybe going to clean out their apartments after they move and see how they respond.
Like how great would that be?
CW: How great.
SH: Really great.
Katie: And my mission president definitely talked about marriage when I left. For sure. For sure.
CW: Oh my goodness.
Katie: Yes. And at the time I think I was also so indoctrinated that iIt didn't hit me hard. It didn't hit me weird, but definitely was emphasizing that it's the next big thing.
That's it. That's the next big thing. And now in my adult mindset, I look back at that and I think, wow, like that's really setting up some impressionable young adults for disappointment. Maybe they have other ideas of what their next big thing is, but their mission president, who they have loved and admired and respected during this time on their missions is telling them another thing, and that's really hard
SH: Mission presidents can be so influential.
Katie: For good ways and in harmful ways, absolutely.
SH: Right. But I also think the marriage thing gets even a little bit more insidious when you think that a lot of kids now are getting their mission calls in high school, right? These are children.
Katie: Absolutely! Babies!
SH: It's crazy!
Katie: Right. Why are you having a conversation about marriage? At all.
SH: Right. Interesting. But this is the thing about wallpaper.
Katie: Right.It's on.
SH: It didn't land funny for you because you've been seeing it your whole life. So like you don't even notice it anymore.
Katie: Yep. That's correct.
CW: You know what's interesting is— I mean, obviously this carries past missions as well. But my husband, when his sister went on a mission, he wasn't married yet, when his younger sister went on a mission. And so he went through the temple with her in the Los Angeles temple. And I don't know why.
Oh, I know why. My sister in law was going to Chile on her mission. And I think one of the temple presidents at the time in LA was going to Chile. And so he said, Oh, come visit in my office after you receive your endowment. So my sister in law and my future husband, they go in there with their parents to visit, and the temple president or counselor, whoever he was, he turned to Paul and he said, so young man, have you received your full endowment yet? And Paul did not appreciate that at all. First of all, I think my husband already has an aversion to authority, but then to have a stranger, like just grill him on a day that should have been his sister's day.
Katie:So inappropriate.
CW: So inappropriate. Yeah. Which is probably why he remembers it to this day and he told me the story and I still remember it and yeah. Just, it's wallpaper. It's what we just have hanging up always. So anyway, should we go to our next voicemail?
SH: This one is anonymous.
VM Anonymous 1: So I served my mission from 2019 to 2021. So kind of in the middle of COVID and everything. And, honestly don't regret my mission. I loved my mission and there were so many amazing people that I was able to meet, but it was also probably one of the most sexist experiences I've ever experienced, and there's so many things that I could talk about why that is. But I think one of the biggest things that came to mind was just how lonely I felt as a sister because the mission is very much designed for men.
I mean, the whole structure is set up to benefit men, and women are just there to help, I feel like. I mean, I never really served around other sisters. I never really got to have really close missionary friends, but the elders, they would hang out with each other every night, and they would make friends and do fun things. But because we were sisters, we weren't allowed to participate in that because the whole rules with elders and sisters interacting with each other. So that was really lonely, and really depressing and sad, [00:15:00] so I just felt pretty outcast for a lot of my missions.
CW: I don't think I'd ever known that before. I mean, I didn't serve a mission, so I didn't know that that's probably a very real feeling for sister missionaries. Especially if they serve in a geographically large mission where the women can feel very isolated. How did I not know this?
SH: I don't know. I have lots of complicated feelings about this because I understand the problems of putting a bunch of 18 to 20 year old young men and women together. Right? I mean, things are going to happen, right? There's going to be stuff going on when you're going to do that. So I understand why they're so, so careful about that separation, but I also feel like it just carries over into the rest of our church life. It's like the separation starts right there. And then a woman is never allowed to work with a man again. It doesn't matter if I've been married 43 years, I don't get to be in a position where I'm working alone with men, ever. And so I feel like, while I understand it with an 18 year old, I don't understand it quite so well with a 40 year old, but I do feel like this bright dividing line is put in place on missions and that wall holds.
Katie: Susan, that's a really good point. And I think you're exactly right. I think it does start there and it just widens, right? It just gets bigger and bigger. My heart really goes out to this woman. I mean, that sounds excruciatingly hard. And especially during COVID, that couldn't have helped the situation, right?
I mean, one of the most meaningful aspects of my mission was the relationships between the missionaries, and cross gender as well. So I can't even imagine. That would be incredibly challenging.
CW: I mean, yeah, during COVID, like that's a whole section. We should have a whole section.
SH: We should have a whole episode.
Katie: You'd get more voicemails than you could even handle.
CW: Oh my goodness.
SH: COVID was weird for missionaries, I’m sure.
CW: All right. Let's listen to a message from another woman named Shelly.
VM Shelly 2: I have two bits of advice for sisters going on a mission. The first is to be fully aware that you have a little power and authority on a mission outside of just teaching the gospel and finding people to teach. After all your hard work connecting with people and teaching them the gospel, it'll be elders, half the time younger than you, who will swoop in and get to do the baptizing and get to give them the Holy Ghost, set them apart, and do all these other things. After you've done all the hard work, and have these elders come and always tell you what to do, and meetings, and tell you you’re not doing a good enough job, or do this differently, that was a challenge.
But, the upside, the other thing that they should learn is to have their hearts open and be ready to make connections. That was the best part of my mission, was connecting with people on a different level than I ever have before and loving in a way I never have before. It was beautiful in so many ways. I was taught humility and connecting with people.
I was taught how to deal with rejection, which was beautiful, and difficult at the same time. So go with open hearts and open minds as to the reality of what you're stepping into, and sometimes obviously you can't know what's difficult until you experience it.
CW: Okay, hearing her message reminds me that a million years ago when I was a young adult and there was a young man in my ward, and he came home from his mission. And in his homecoming talk, he called the converts that he got to baptize that the sisters had taught, he called them freebie baptisms.
Katie: Oh my gosh.
CW: I know.
SH: Of course he did!
CW: Of course he did. They were, but who jokes about it? Like “Ha, ha, ha, like this was mine because she's a girl and she can't baptize.”
And it was just so, so, so insensitive. And so I would love to know the percentage of returned missionaries who are still glad that they served. I mean, she had a really complicated message, right? Like she talked about the hard things, but I loved her ending where she talked about love because I never ceased to be amazed.
We get so many messages, Susan, from women who have finally decided to step away from the church. And it seems like whenever women write us, or just, when I listen to other churchy podcasts or whatever, so many people, even though they chose to step away, are still glad that they served.
And I find that really fascinating, probably because of what this caller just said about learning to love in a way you've never loved before. Like those are the biggie life lessons. So I'm really glad she shared that.
SH: I absolutely love this message. I love everything about it. I of course knew that girls weren't allowed to baptize, but somehow when she's talking [00:20:00] about it, it hit me a little bit differently, and I was thinking this is like a microcosm of the whole woman's experience in the church. It's like doing all the work of giving birth to a baby, but not getting to participate in blessing the baby.
I mean, they're just things like that all along in a woman's church experience where the real work, I'm using air quotes, is done by men. And so, I don't know, I'm going to have to just sit with that a little bit. That feels heavy on my shoulders, having just listened to that message.
But the other thing that I loved, her advice was to bring an open mind and an open heart. And I feel like that is also amazing advice for anyone approaching a life in the church, in any faith community, actually. If you approach that with an open mind and an open heart. I feel like we're always encouraged to have open hearts. I'm not totally sure that we're ever encouraged to have open minds. I don't know. But I love those two things working in tandem. I think that's the recipe for growing spiritually. So, I loved that message.
Katie: I think that she definitely hit on a lot of great points, and certainly teaching people the gospel brings you so close, and you're talking about things like God and Christ, right? And salvation and all those things you become so close and then for them to hear, Oh wait, before you can get baptized we have to bring in someone you don't know to make this okay. And they were like, what? You have to do what? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I know, I know. But it's just a conversation.
They're like, well, what? It didn't make sense to them when, and now looking back, I'm like, oh, it really is a little complicated.
CW: I love though, Katie, that, I mean, you served your mission in the dark ages, right? In the 1990s.
Katie: Yup.
CW: And so I love that even then, people knew that doesn't sound right. Something about this sounds a little bit off. So that actually feels very validating to me, that— I mean, maybe that would be a good litmus test. Ask people outside of our church, what do you think about this policy or whatever? Cause I think a lot of them would be like, wait, what? You want me to join a church that what?
SH:Let's hear a message from Sarah.
VM Sarah: Hi, my name is Sarah. I went on a mission 15 years ago. I ended up leaving the church two or three years ago, but my mission was the beginning of the end for me. I didn't really realize how little women are valued in the church until I served a mission. My mission president did not treat his wife well, and he did not treat the sister missionaries well.
Our voices were not valued. We were often even laughed at. We were not allowed to teach single women. But we were allowed to teach single men because we needed more Melchizedek priesthood holders in order to get a temple. I remember teaching women with deadbeat husbands that the men were supposed to be the leaders in their home and having them look at me like I was crazy.
My mission truly showed me how little my voice mattered and it started the path that eventually led me out of the church.
SH: Was that true in your mission, Katie? Were you not allowed to teach single women?
Katie: That was not the case, no. In fact, it was like,a bit too far in the opposite direction. Teach whomever you can, wherever you can.
Yeah. A bit—if you can't tell from my voice, now that I look back—a bit to a fault. I could go a lot deeper on that one, but yeah.
SH: Actually I have a story I could share about that also, but I won't.
CW: Dang, now I want to hear both of your stories!
SH: Well it's another episode.
Katie: Exactly.
CW: Okay. Okay. Maybe we'll get to them. I've had conversations off and on with friends over the years, who've had daughters serve their missions, and sometimes they'll say things to me like, I'm worried for my missionary daughter, when she comes home, for all the similar reasons that Sarah mentioned in this call.
I had a son who served a mission and he went through a little weirdo phase when he came home, maybe you did too, Katie. Maybe every missionary goes through a little bit of a weirdo phase when they come home, adjusting back to civilian life. I don't know. But I think that could be ten times harder for women when they come home, because they were so needed and then all of a sudden they're not.
Especially for women, they'll never be needed, probably quite like that. That just breaks my heart to hear Sarah saying that the mission was the beginning of the end for her. And this sounds really, really hard. What makes it even harder, I think, is this was only 15 years ago. So we're like 2009, for Sarah. This isn't something that happened in the 1960s. This is so, so recent that I'm almost shocked. And yet I'm not. Never mind. I'm not shocked. [00:25:00]
SH: Yeah. Her message was hard for me. For all the reasons that she talks about, I've always felt like serving a mission would not have been the right thing for me.
I don't think that I could have survived some of those things. But I will also say that, I mean, I have often felt like I had to play a little bit of catch-up in the church, and really honestly in my own spiritual development, as a result of not having that experience.
So I think it really can be a pretty complicated thing in a person's life. It throws off a lot of light and also, depending on who you have, this is a case where I think the mission president really makes a huge difference. Katie, you had a great one and Sarah— it sounds like it didn't go so well with hers. I just think there's a lot of mission roulette in this whole experience.
Next we have a message from Mary Jane.
VM Mary Jane: My situation's a little bit different because I went on a mission in 2018 with my husband. We went to Maryland to work in the Maryland archives, working on and digitizing millions and millions of documents in their archives.
FamilySearch has an arrangement with archives around the country where they send senior missionaries in to digitize these documents and to archive them. And a couple of things stood out to me. Number one, my husband was my senior companion, which is a little bit strange because I actually had more responsibility and seniority in the jobs that we were doing.
And number two was, the work was back breaking. It was extremely difficult physically to do. Carrying heavy boxes, and leaning over tables to digitize the documents, and we would have been so much better served, and served the church better, is if we could have gone on some sort of a mission where we could have been interacting with people.
CW: I think it's interesting, this is our second message we're touching on today, about loneliness. As she said, digitizing millions of documents. Oh my gosh. And I have a question for you, Katie and maybe you don't know. I don't know, but for young people, missionaries, like there's always a senior companion in the partnership, right?
Katie: In my experience, it wasn't so much that it was specified. It was just a matter of how long have you been out. That was all it was for us. I have more time on here. I'm the senior companion. You have more time being a missionary. You're the senior companion.
CW: Interesting. Okay. So when she says her husband was the senior companion—
Katie: Yeah, someone must have specified something to her.
CW: That's my question.
SH: Speaking of things I'm not going to try to spin well.
CW: Good job, Susan.
Katie: Do you want to hear that conversation? Like how does that go?
SH: Again, I feel like it's really just sort of an amplification of some of the endemic problems in our culture and in our church structure. It doesn't surprise me at all. And I want to be surprised. I do.
CW: I want to be surprised, too! Mary Jane said that she had more experience in a lot of this work, and yet he was the senior missionary. And this reminds me, Susan, before, when we've talked about callings where only the men can be like the head of it—
SH: Right. I just had a conversation with a friend about this.
CW: Really?
SH: Yeah. She and her husband are serving together. He's in charge of it, but he has no interest really in what they're doing and she does all the work. So she keeps telling the bishop, this is ludicrous that you keep trying to go through him on this.
And the bishop says, well, really he's in charge of it.
CW: What are those? What's that calling again? Is that like, ward, temple— No, Family History Specialist?
SH: It’s Family History Specialist. Yeah.
CW: That’s right. And a woman cannot be the head.
SH: Right.
CW: A man has to be. And so we have I don't know how many messages and emails we have gotten from women saying, I actually have a master's degree in this, but I can't be the head of the committee.
So the Bishop had to call a man da da da da da. And I'm just like, again, I never ceased to be amazed. I don't know what priesthood has to do with looking up dead people on a computer, but okay. I don't know.
SH: I don’t know, having a senior companion for couple missionaries and having it be the man is very similar to me of having the man preside, although it's an equal partnership.
Katie: Where have I heard that before?
CW: Where have you heard it before, Katie?
SH: Sometimes I feel like missions are just everything distilled to be a little bit even more. Like missions are the church dialed up to 11 probably. I don't know. I haven't been on one, but that's the impression that I get.
A lot of rules [00:30:00] and things like that going on missions. And we stick to the letter of the law on pretty much everything it sounds like.
Katie: Wouldn’t it be so great to be able to have a webpage for senior missionaries where they send the options, this is the focus of this mission, this is when it's available, this is how long. And you can just choose.
SH: Well, I think that's happening now.
Katie: Actually?
CW: Is it?
SH: Yeah. I think senior missionaries, you actually do get to choose where you go and what you're doing. Yeah. I think the direction that they've moved.
Katie: I knew you could choose length, but I didn't know you could choose where or your focus.
SH: You can choose where.
Katie: Well, then look at me getting my wishes coming true. That's great.
SH: I think it's changing and I think it's because the church is struggling to fill some of those seniors. I don't think we have as many couples stepping forward to serve missions as they think we need.
Katie: Okay. You can keep this in or take it out if you want, but I just googled LDS senior missionaries. You can. Like it says what is available, it doesn't say when. Oh, no, it does, like this is exactly what I was just talking about.
SH: That's wonderful! You're a prophet.
Katie: Well, this isn't— There's a consider button. It doesn't say I'll do it, it says “consider.” Interesting.
SH: Okay, that's like test driving a car and thinking that the guy who set up the test drive isn't going to call you every single day at your office and ask you if you're still thinking about the car.
Do not hit consider on that form.
CW: Another great metaphor.
Katie: Oh, that's funny!
CW: Let's head to our next section that, Katie, you so aptly named Meritocracy/Religious Scrupulosity/Shame. So we're hitting a lot of hot topics in this section.
SH: Well, the first to sound up on those topics is going to be Maddie.
VM Maddie: My feelings about my mission are very conflicted because on one hand, it was amazing.
I fell in love with the Peruvian people and Jesus's love for me was just cemented in my soul because of how hard it was and how I could feel him carrying me through the whole experience.
But on the other hand, my mission is where meritocracy became my belief system. Over and over I was told that obedience brought blessings and I felt like my worth came down to how hard I could work and how exactly I could follow the rules. On my mission is where I really felt like I needed to earn my salvation and earn Jesus's grace.
I also feel a lot of shame about the way that I taught people. I don't necessarily believe in these things anymore, and so to tell good Jesus-loving people that their baptism was not valid and that they needed to be sealed in a temple if they wanted to be with their families forever feels very spiritually manipulative and I hate that I was a part of that.
To anyone who's going, I would say, just get as much out of the experience as you can not take it too seriously, focus on Jesus and embrace it for the adventure that it is. And just love. Don't worry so much about the rules.
CW: Her advice is so beautiful.
SH: It is. Katie, do you feel like that's possible? To do that, to not worry so much about the rules?
Katie:That's a great question, and I thought about that exact thing a lot, just as I've thought about this discussion today. I have two boys and they say that they want to go on missions and I think about that a lot with them. Can I help them see that they can share the love of Christ with others, worry less about the rules and just love, right?
Don't worry about hitting the mark. Did you love someone that day? Did you serve somebody? I think you can leave having that mindset, but you get there and I think that would be a really tall order to actually just go against the grain that much and just not care about the rules because it's your whole life every single day. There's no break.
CW: Well, and you're being interviewed too, right? About the goals that you've met.
Katie: Yeah. And I think that you can only say so many times, I'm doing it my way.
SH: Right.
Katie: I think it would take a really special relationship with your mission president because I do think that that maybe could happen.
SH: I don't even think the mission president would be the whole problem. You've got zone leaders and it could be pretty miserable to be trying to completely not care about the metrics at all.
Katie: You would really have to disengage, you'd really have to not care what other people think of you.
CW: And I think that's really hard at that age.
Katie: Absolutely.
CW: Like it's easy for us who are older ladies to say that.
Katie: I would even say easier.
CW: Easier, thank you Katie. I'm just saying if it's possible for anyone it's more likely possible for people who've had a lot of life experience to say this is [00:35:00] what's right for me.
For a 19 year old… There's no way I would have been able to say that. I am such a rule keeper. That was definitely first half of life for me, checking all the boxes. So yeah. What stood out to me in this message— And she didn't use that phrase. I think we have a message coming up that uses the phrase though. “Exact obedience”.
But that's definitely something she touched on in her message. And that reminds me, Susan, way back on episode 40, do you remember? We talked about that phrase, exact obedience. It came from Russell Nelson, like an MTC talk he gave to the missionaries at the MTC on Thanksgiving or something like way back in 2013.
So if people are interested in hearing more, go check out episode 40. But that talk, over 10 years ago now, seems to be still echoing in the lives of our missionaries. And that sounds really tough. I mean, here's the exact quote that president Nelson used. He said, “Obedience brings success. Exact obedience brings miracles.”
SH: Well, and how telling is it that that phrase—I don't know if it was born there, but it came to popularity after that talk—that it originated at the MTC. I mean, that is not surprising to me at all. I feel like the sort of indoctrination— I hate to use that word.
I know it's a cynical word, I don't really have a better word because that feels like the right word to me, but the indoctrination that happens on missions might really be the shadow side of the whole mission program and the time that it falls in people's lives. I mean, I think that's part of the goal of missions, right?
I don't think that the church approaches it from any kind of nefarious intentions, but I think the missions are specifically designed to create members who will be lifelong stalwart members. And I think this is why there's a focus on every young man serving a mission. We're trying to create lifelong priesthood holders who will honor their priesthood responsibilities.
And when you want to have that kind of lasting influence on someone's life, then I think very often the tactics that you have to use to get there are not pretty.
CW: Yeah, I know you didn't like using that word indoctrination, but I think it goes back to just what Katie said a couple minutes ago, which is— How did you put it Katie?
Like you think it's possible to maybe go out on the mission with just the advice she gives of love love loving. But then once you're there you get pulled in that tractor beam
Katie: That conformism.
CW: Yeah.
Katie: It's hard. It's hard to not do that. So her words “spiritually manipulative" really stuck out to me.
I think, unfortunately, it is a very appropriate term. As missionaries we really swoop in and we're quick to disregard the traditions and heritage of the people we're teaching just because of that laser focus on them being converted to our ways. Like indoctrination, it carries a negative feel to it.
But now in hindsight, I'm like, that’s what was happening.
SH: That's what it is.
Katie: And again, exactly like you said, Susan, it's not nefarious. Right. It's just what's happening.
SH: Let's hear from Marley.
VM Marley: My name is Marley, and reflecting on my mission always brings up a lot of conflicting feelings.
On one hand, the events leading up to my decision to serve a mission are very precious to me. Too coincidental to be a coincidence type of deal. And there were things about my mission that I absolutely loved: learning Spanish, being around a different culture, some of the companions and missionaries I served with, the people I met, and a lot of personal growth in various areas.
But on the other hand, I hated the expectations of being a missionary, specifically the expectations for exact obedience and to hit all these number goals. When you're a perfectionist, you have to deal with the anxiety and shame that follows when you obviously can't live up to that expectation. We also had a monthly mission goal of how many baptisms we'd have.
And we were expected to ask everyone we talked to to be baptized. Talk about uncomfortable. Also every night, we reported our key indicators to our district leader: how many lessons we had, how many baptismal invitations we extended. The stress on numbers did not make me feel like people mattered more than the numbers.
I also regret the arrogant elitist attitude I had as a missionary. I spoke with a lot of Catholics on a daily basis. Some were very devout, but we would always brush their faith off like, yeah, yeah, yeah, but you don't know God like we do. Let us share a message with you and you'll hear all these things you've been missing.
I feel like I missed so many opportunities to have meaningful connections and conversations with people over our shared beliefs in Jesus Christ and a loving God.
CW: Katie, I have a question. And maybe it changes per mission and [00:40:00] maybe it's different now, but is that normal? Like you have to call someone every single night and give some kind of statistics on what you did that day?
Katie: So it's funny that you brought that up because as I listened to her voicemail, in my head I was like, did we do it every day? And I don't think we did it every day, I think we did it weekly. I think in my memory it was every Sunday night we gave an account of the week. But yeah, it's very specific, very detailed.
CW: So, I mean, that could be different. Mission presidents had different rules again.
SH: But at least weekly you're reporting on all those things.
CW: Well, and in this message, there's that phrase that I was alluding to earlier, right? Exact obedience. So it's pretty explicit.
SH: This whole message was really hard for me because I understand that the point of going on missions is to convert people. To take the gospel to people, let's say it that way. The goal is you're going to convert them, and I feel like that puts you in a situation where you are approaching everyone that you meet with an agenda. Like she said, we were challenged to ask everybody that we met if they wanted to be baptized. I almost have to laugh at that, but I'm sure that it is almost that much under some mission presidents, that they do have that kind of expectation.
Well, it's hard for me because I don't want to discount the very genuine love that I think missionaries have for the people that they serve. I think that's one of the truths of life, right? You come to love the people that you serve. I know that as a mother, that's been my experience with people. When I'm really serving someone, I develop a deep love for them. But that's why I feel like service missions could be better for the missionaries themselves than proselytizing missions.
You wouldn't be coming at that service with the same agenda. And so you would have the opportunity to still develop that kind of love and relationship with the people. But you might also be getting things from those people that you're not getting when you're approaching it from the perspective of I'm here to teach you.
I'm here to teach you. We have all these things you don't have and I'm here to teach you about God. I feel like our missionaries could perhaps get more growth working side by side with people, where they were allowed to learn what they know about God. And I just feel like it would be an enhancement all the way around and to the bottom line goal of missions.
And I feel like we'd still convert people. I don't think it would necessarily change the outcome that much. Just changing the way that we went at it. I don't know. Am I totally off base, Katie?
Katie: You are so on base. I mean, this is, yes, I agree a hundred percent. We operate in a one-up position as missionaries. We're quick to diminish all the positive things that other people have in the effort to, like you said, convert.
We want them to change to our way. Marley really hits on the aspect of my mission, which I loved, that makes me cringe. I relate to her regrets. That feeling of jamming baptism into every conversation, even when it's completely unnatural. I looked back and I thought, wow, I definitely regret that.
And that hyper focus on numbers really to me is like the antithesis of what missions should be about. I loved her yeah, yeah, yeah, you know God but not like I do quote. I mean, that was just so relatable to me.
SH: Ouch.
Katie: I know, right. But it really was. She said that and I started laughing out loud in a, I know exactly what you're talking about, way.
If I could go back to my 21 year old self and redo my mission, it would be very different, as I'm sure most of us would be with our past, right? We learn and we grow, but I would sit with the people and listen because I loved them. But, like Susan said, I had an agenda, for sure.
I was an incredibly hard working missionary and I had an agenda but I would want to sit with them. I would want to hear their stories. I would want to know what makes them who they are and what they believe and why. I would love to be able to do that instead of prioritizing and making sure that delivery of my message happens above anything else.
SH: We've been in missions—we've moved around a lot—but we've been in missions where the directive was you challenge baptism, and if they don't accept you by the second discussion, you're done. You don't meet with them anymore.
Katie: Yeah. 100%.
SH: Man, that's hard for me. It's hard for me.
Katie: Talk about agenda.
SH: Right. Right. It's hard to even imagine in a situation like that whether you're even allowed to develop the love for people, unless they're getting baptized, right? And then that feels sort of like conditional love. Then you love them a lot.
Katie: You love them a lot!
CW: Ouch!
SH: Oh, sorry. I didn't mean to say that out loud.
CW: Oh my [00:45:00] goodness. You know what? My husband served in Belgium, Dutch speaking, a million years ago, and his mission president served in the same area as a young missionary. So he knew what it was like to be in Holland and in Belgium. And I think because of that, he was so relaxed.
I think my husband had the perfect mission president for his very kind of laissez faire attitude that he still has about a whole lot of things. And so he got lucky like you did as well, Katie. I mean, he made good friends on his mission that he went and had dinner with every night for six months, because what else was he going to do in Europe? Just love people and get to know them. So, I'm glad that was his experience, anyway. I wish it was everyone's.
Katie: I see real advantages to being called to missions like that, that are less known for baptisms, like in Europe, Scandinavia, because the expectations are completely different.
They have that luxury, just like you were saying, to focus less on numbers, less on having your agenda and just more heavily on love and service. I personally, in my adult life, when people get called there, to those kinds of places, I'm so psyched for them.
CW: Oh, interesting.
Katie: In a different way.
CW: Yeah. In a different way. That's a really good perspective.
Katie: Have fun loving people for the next two years. That's, I mean, great. Sign me up.
SH: Yeah. Who doesn't want to do that?
Katie: Yeah. Perfect.
SH: All right. Well, let's hear the next message. This one is anonymous.
VM Anonymous 2: Hi, Cynthia and Susan. I served my mission back in 2015. At the time, there was not a lot of acceptance towards missionaries who came home early from their missions. Around three months into my mission, I had a companion who had to leave the field earlier than expected due to her mental health.
After sending her home, my mission president took me aside and made a point of letting me know that, and I quote, “that is not the correct way to return home from a mission.” A few months later, I developed some health concerns that were not being resolved. Though there were physical symptoms, my mission president insisted that it was all in my head.
After losing a lot of weight and being in true agony for several months, I prayed to know whether I should return home or not. I remember being flooded with a peaceful confirmation that I should return home. Upon telling my mission president, he promptly told me that that couldn't be true and that I was giving up.
I insisted that I felt I should return and was eventually sent home with little ceremony and with a tremendous amount of shame on my shoulders. Even though I figured out what was physically wrong with me soon after, that time after my mission was one of the darkest periods of my life. There were many things and people that I loved about my mission, but I think I will be working on processing the trauma caused by this mission president for the rest of my life.
CW: Did I hear that right? She said she served her mission like 2015?
Katie: Yeah.
CW: So again, this isn't a 70 year old woman calling in saying, this is how I was treated by a mission president 50 years ago. I really thought in the last few years we had gotten a lot better about missionaries coming home.
Not so long ago, there was still a mission president who was peddling shame to missionaries that needed to go home a little bit early. So if you're using the phrase, like she did, the darkest time of her life, I don't know. That's not okay.
SH: Well, I feel like this is another one of those areas where I won't even try to spin it.
My brother came home early from his mission. This would have been in, I don't know what, 1979 maybe, 78, 79. So, it's a long time ago. That was at a time when very few people were coming home early. I'm not that surprised that it was handled badly and that it had a huge impact going forward in his life.
But I would hope that we're getting better because now we have more kids who are coming home early. And I'm thinking about it though, when she's talking in 2015, she may well have had a mission president who was on a mission at the time when his mission president said things like if you're going to go home early, it better be in a box, right?
Because those are the kinds of things that were said to missionaries. So I feel like this kind of trauma around missions ending early is something that continues to roll forward in the church, even if we're making some steps to get better at that. The past is still with us in the traumatized members’ experiences and their lives. They continue to carry those experiences. Like she said, I'm going to be processing this for the rest of my life.
CW: I think that was one of my biggest aha moments, Susan. I don't remember what topic we were talking about. We were talking about some policy or rule or whatever that had changed.
And I don't know, maybe I was backpedaling and saying, so I guess we don't really need to talk about it cause it's not there anymore. And you were like the past is still relevant because we carry it. [00:50:00]
SH: I said something smart?
CW: You did.
SH: That's pretty good, actually. I like that.
CW: You said two or three things smart, Susan. On this podcast. Two or three.
SH: I hope you wrote them all down.
CW: I did. I did. Well, they're stuck in my brain because it just made so much sense to me, and I would just love it if the church would be part of that processing. But they choose not to be, and it's a deliberate choice that I do not understand why they don't help us process these past traumas.
And even if it's not a trauma, just things that were really sticky for us that have changed now. But we never really talk about those things. Anyway, I'm getting off topic here. But yeah, we need to process and I'm so sorry that for her she feels like she's gonna probably be processing some of that the rest of her life.
SH: And probably processing it alone largely, you know
Katie: You're probably right. I'm impressed by this woman that she listened to herself over her president's advice because that's not easy to do. They hold such authority over missionaries. And so hearing a missionary leaning into their own personal revelation, I mean, that's really remarkable.
So I applaud her for that. But at the same time, it's just so tragic for any mission president to even attempt to shame a missionary into doing anything. It just should not be.
SH: All right, let's listen to the next one. This message is also anonymous.
VM Anonymous 3: My mission president was all about programs, certificates, challenges, and numbers.
He drilled into us that obedience is the only way you will have success. I would leave mission conferences with a pounding headache every single time, completely overwhelmed at whatever new program they were implementing that month. One time we were challenged to issue 300 invitations and deliver 10 first discussions every single day of proselyting to comply with the new challenge.
I was always trying to manipulate the conversation with people we'd meet to sneak in a first discussion and put a Book of Mormon in the person's hands and invite them to church. We had to report our numbers every night to our district leaders, who would then report it to the zone leaders, who would then report it to the mission president’s assistants, who were all very young men, several years younger than us.
As sister missionaries, we were literally at the very bottom. If we didn't make the daily quota, some of those young men who had authority over us could be real jerks and would question our work ethic and assume we were being lazy. Well, in my last area, I met a fantastic, inactive, older woman. I found myself drawn to her progressive ideas and liberal minded approach to life and we became good friends.
She helped me realize that my real job was to help people feel God's love and to give people hope in Christ, and the way to do that was not to stuff a first discussion down their throats, but to actually listen to their life experiences and their unique interactions with God in a respectful way, recognizing their experience as valid even if it differed from the version of spirituality I was pushing.
I began to understand that you can be completely obedient to the rules and not make a speck of difference in actually making the world a better place for God's children, and that making the world a better place through sincere love and kindness should have been the only challenge I was ever given.
CW: Preach! That's so good. Oh my gosh, she's amazing. You know what, as I'm listening to this voicemail, it reminds me of the episode we recently had with Candace and we talked there just really briefly about a Harvard study that showed the different metrics for success that kind of exist, the differences between genders.
And then it reminded me also with our conversation with Jenna Spangler earlier this season as well about adult development, where she talked about that prescription drug dilemma. Do you remember that Susan? We won't go into it. Sorry. We don't have time right now. You'd have to go listen to the episode with Jana, but just the problem solving skills often differ between genders.
And I can't help, but wonder for the thousandth time, if women made the rules, and men were the helpers—and I'm not saying that's the ideal because I think egalitarianism is the ideal—but if we flipped the script and women made the rules and men were the helpers, like, how would our missions look different?
There's no way they would look the same way they do now. I don't think so.
SH: I think that's a pretty safe assumption.
Katie: I mean, I'll put making the world a better place through sincere love and kindness should have been the only challenge she was ever given like on a poster. It's the most perfect quote about what missions should be.
I mean, what more do we want out of a mission? I mean, I know like Susan saying earlier, of course they're wanting to convert, but this is it. This is the mission of a mission, in my opinion.
SH: Can you have that be the goal of missions? Can you take the whole exact obedience thing out of it and still be creating life-long dedicated to the organization members?
Katie: That's a good question. I think it's [00:55:00] possible.
SH: I think it’s…possible.
CW: I think it's possible, but I think that's a completely different paradigm. We would have to overturn a lot, not just missions. A lot.
SH: Well, we'd have to be creating dedication to an entirely different kind of culture than we are.
CW: Ding, ding, ding.
SH: Let's hear a message from Kaylynn.
VM Kaylynn: I loved and I hated my mission. I loved the parts where I got to meet amazing people and have amazing discussions about the gospel and about Christ, and I loved my companions, and I feel like I was very much called on a mission for my companions, not so much for teaching. I didn't do a lot of teaching. I didn't do a lot of baptizing.
But those were my best memories with my companions. And with the members that I got really close to. I served in a very high member population area. The worst parts for me were all of the pressure. All of the numbers that you're expected to hit and the focus on numbers and goals and baptisms.
Yeah, just the pressure and all of that has caused some trauma for me. Still unpacking that as I go, and finding new triggers and new things that bring me back to some of the most stressful moments in my mission where I just felt like I was the worst missionary, and why am I even here?
So, I don't know, there's just so many things I could say, so many stories I could tell. But for a young woman going out, be yourself. That's all you really need. That's all God expects you to be.
SH: I have never once in my church experience had someone say to me, Just be yourself, Susan. That's all it is. That's all that God wants you to be.
I'm having a really interesting experience as I'm listening to all of these messages. I'm having this sort of chicken or egg thing going on where, as a person who didn't serve a mission, hearing these women talk about their experiences with the emphasis on things like box-checking, exact obedience, having to file reports about everything.
It explains everything to me about why being a Latter-day Saint feels the way it has felt for me.
And so, that makes me wonder, is it because I'm living in a church of returned missionaries or are our missions the way they are, because our members have already been trained to be that way. And I don't really know the answer to that question, but it seems to me like if we could change the culture of one of the things, either the church or the culture of missions, we might be able to move the needle on the whole thing.
As it is right now, the two things feel very much bound together to me. This is just the way Latter-day Saints operate at church and in their lives and on missions.
Katie: I would just say that this is a big reason I think why now in my adult life, I am not interested in any box checking.
SH: Done that.
Katie: Yeah. Exactly. And really, I did it with such exactness, and it served me then and it was beneficial for my young self and now I have no interest.
SH: Interesting.
CW: First half of life, second half of life, right? I think that's developmentally appropriate when we are younger.
Katie: Right.
CW: To be a little bit more that way and as we get older, it's like oh gosh, I did that. Been there, done that. I just want to love now.
Katie: Something that's been on my mind about the whole numbers thing in missionaries is how the emphasis on numbers really comes at the expense of the actual people with whom the missionaries are coming in contact with, as well as the reputation of the church.
And I really think it can encourage a lack of respect on the part of the missionaries to know they have to teach, for example, three more discussions before the end of the day. And so in their effort to do good, right, to be obedient, because that's good. They'll make it happen. They'll make it happen even if it's inappropriate.
So my example for this is, I lived in New York city for years and my friend there says that people are now avoiding the block where our church and temple are because they don't like getting harassed by the missionaries. My heart broke. In her words, she says “being stopped on the street, even followed, feels invasive and desperate. An invitation to join something that feels desperate or disrespectful is less of an invitation and more of a misguided stunt.” That just to me just speaks so poignantly to numbers. Spirit gone.
SH: Let's hear a message from Sophie.
VM Sophie: So looking back on the mission I really felt like I was not enough. I started as a proselytizing missionary and got sick and came home, and [01:00:00] decided to finish as a service missionary. Then, shortly after finishing my mission, I found out that some close family members were leaving the church, and throughout all of that I really felt like I was not enough.
Like my faith wasn't enough, that I wasn't enough to be healed, to stay on a proselytizing mission. Then, I felt my service wasn't enough and that if only I had stayed on a proselytizing mission, then this wouldn't have happened with my family. Then all these different things. Looking back now I can see that I was enough, and what I gave was enough.
And it's honestly not about what you give. I saw that in the service missionaries I served with. Some of them couldn't give a lot physically or mentally or emotionally, but they were there and they were trying to love as Christ loved and as our Heavenly Parents loved. And that is what mattered. So that is what matters about a mission.
CW: I love the arc of Sophie's message that she felt like she wasn't enough. And then I don't know if it was on her mission or afterwards processing that she realized she was and she is enough. So I find that so beautiful and I'm so happy for her. Do you remember Susan? I don't know. Was it this season? Last season? Who knows? They're all blended together.
We read a Rob Bell quote where he said some gods have to die. They served us well for a time and then they don't. And can I just go on record as saying I want the vending machine God to die. Like I'm tired of it. I'm just so tired of us teaching people that you put your coins in and this is what you'll get.
SH: Oh, I agree. And it breaks my heart to think of a young person on their mission thinking that them not being or doing enough, that they have some kind of responsibility for what's going on in their family, right? It breaks my heart to think that.
I loved that she sort of gave such a beautiful plug for service missions in this message. This one speaks to your favorite word, Cynthia, willingness. And I love that too. I wish that for missionaries, that would be one of the main things that they would learn from a mission is that it's their willingness that is the key that turns everything else.
And I don't feel like that is very often the message that is absorbed or that people take forward. I think very often they feel like it's their obedience that is the key that turns everything.
Katie: I have to agree. Listening to Sophie, my mind went back to Jeff Strong's presentation at Faith Matters Restore, Administering Through Service.
He presented about how he was a mission president, and his missionaries were struggling significantly with mental health, and he knew something had to change. People were leaving, they were wanting to leave. He decided to shift the mission's focus to serving in the community and he spoke about how remarkable the difference was that they experienced as a mission. It was just undeniable. We've certainly touched on this, but in my opinion, that is the answer to the holes in the missionary system. Just to continue with the traditional proselytizing is… Oh, I just feel like it's setting so many people up for very hard feelings.
SH: That raises questions for me about how much autonomy a mission president operates with. That he could make that shift. I love hearing that actually.
Katie: And I wondered the same thing. Yeah. How does one just… But, bravo. Bravo.
CW: Let's hear from Rachel.
VM Rachel: I was asked several times why I had chosen to serve, and in an interview with my mission president when I first got into the field, I was asked that question and my answer was not because I love people and want to share the gospel and save souls or even do service.
My answer was because I wanted God to change me. And while that doesn't necessarily sound like a bad thing, this was coming from a place of not feeling worthy or good enough just the way I was. I have grown up with a lot of scrupulosity and struggling with feelings of unworthiness and like I had to earn God's love, and I felt like by serving a mission God would love me and change me into a better version of me and to who he wanted me to be regardless of who I already was or who I am deep down at my core. And I am glad that I've grown a lot since then, but it was really harmful and colored my mission a bit. Just because that [01:05:00] scrupulosity followed me.
CW: First of all, I'm really glad we got a voicemail about scrupulosity.
And from what I've learned about OCD, obsessive compulsive disorder, scrupulosity, like if you have obsessive compulsive disorder, that's like the umbrella, and then there are a lot of different ways it manifests. And scrupulosity is just one of the ways. And from what I've heard from therapists on various LDS podcasts, it's not super common. Like it's definitely part of OCD, but it's not super common. And so hearing so many voicemails about it, I just have lots more questions now because statistically in our faith, it seems like it's more common than it seems like it should be in the general population.
So maybe we're going back to that chicken and egg thing. Do we cause this or does a high demand religion just trigger the scrupulosity? I just have a lot more questions now.
SH: No, that's a great question. Her message made me think of that old adage, wherever you go, there you are. Kids are going to show up on missions with all of the traits that they already have, right? And this is why I have a problem with this sort of cultural expectation and pressure for every young man to serve a mission, because a lot of young men may thrive, but there are some kids for whom that kind of pressure and exact obedience kind of emphasis is never going to be a healthy thing.
There are just some people that is going to not work well with other things about their personality or other challenges they may have. And so at that age in particular, I don't think kids always know themselves, everything about them. I mean, a lot of these kinds of problems sort of emerge at that late adolescent stage.
And so kids are just learning these things about themselves. And I'm always sorry when a kid learns these kinds of things about themselves through struggling on a mission. But I don't think that's uncommon. I think that some of the rigors of mission experience are a trigger that help some of these things reveal themselves.
And then you have a kid who is experiencing damage and trauma that never needed to happen. And that's, I don't know, that's just one of the hard things about having an expectation where everyone goes.
CW: Well said.
SH: Let's hear from Mariah.
VM Mariah: So I'll try to condense this down, but I could talk about this for days and days, but I got home from my mission just over five years ago.
And I don't want to say that my mission was just horrible because I did have so much fun and I did experience so much true joy, but my mission was also incredibly hard and damaging to me. On paper, I had pretty much a perfect mission. I checked every single box, I served all 18 months, and I trained, and I was in STL, and I had baptisms, and so on.
But it took me checking all those boxes to realize that I didn't need to do any of them to have a quote unquote successful mission. But to me at that time, if I had missed even one of those boxes, I would have felt like a failure. And there was nothing in mission culture that would have told me that it wasn't true. I was a failure, in mission culture, if I didn't check one of those boxes.
And it's important to point out that the mission acts like a maximum power magnifying glass on any prior issues that you have. And I had some pretty much dormant struggles that hadn't really come out or been an issue before my mission, but for the first time in my life, I was struggling with feelings of intense anxiety and depression and OCD that developed into religious scrupulosity, but I didn't have names for any of those things.
And I just thought I was having a normal mission experience. And, again, there was nothing that would have told me the opposite was true. And even though my mission hurt me so much, I don't discourage anyone from going, but I definitely have plenty of warnings and advice. But if I could choose just one, it is to not get caught up in serving the perfect mission because that does not exist.
Don't stress about exact obedience versus normal obedience. I cannot tell you what that quote put me through. Do not listen to it. Just do your best. The Lord accepts whatever you have to offer, and you're going to be fine.
CW: Wow, Mariah. We're soul sisters, because even though I didn't serve a mission I could hustle with the best of them.
And so I think that's why my own belief in meritocracy didn't collapse until I was 40. Because literally I could just run and run and run with the best of them until I couldn't. And then all the air went out of my balloon. So I understand that type of personality, Mariah.
SH: Well basically everything she just said was exhibit A for what I was just talking about.
She just exactly spelled out the ways that her experience fell into exactly what I was just saying. So I promise that I do not have Mariah on salary, but I would like to send her a little reward for making my point for me. Thanks Mariah.
Katie: Mariah's advice is fantastic. You should be teaching that advice of if you're going to go do your best and be at peace.
I mean, every mission prep should be teaching that. [01:10:00]
CW: Absolutely. I love that Mariah gave us good advice. A lot of our voicemails have given us advice so far, but now we're going to actually segue into our last section where it's just full-on advice. So I'm excited to hear what they have to say.
SH: Let’s start with advice from Sarah.
VM Sarah 2: Some things I loved about my mission were being led to lift up God's children who needed it, a lot of the relationships I built, and the closeness I felt to God and the Spirit.
Some of the hard parts that have since changed, were always wearing a long skirt. It would get stuck in my bike tires. Huzzah for pants. Being so cut off from my friends and family. Yay for weekly phone calls now. Coming back and having to jump into high level courses and having so many friends graduated. Hooray for starting younger.
Some of the hard parts that might still be there. Feeling like I needed to do everything male leadership said. Falling into scrupulosity and stressing about the rules so much. Had a hell of a time getting out on the mission because I said too much in my paperwork and in interviews with my state president and bishop. Dealing with the patriarchy. Things like my mission president asking if I was on my period each time I called because usually the sister's problems resolve themselves once they are off their periods. Being cut off from my coping mechanisms and wearing garments while riding bikes in 100 plus degree heat and 100 percent humidity.
My advice, call out the patriarchal sh* more. Listen to your inner self and God more. Don't worry about men in positions of power. Stick to the script in interviews and paperwork. No need to give men any ammo over you. Take care of yourself. No, you don't need to hustle for your worth or your worthiness to be out there doing missionary work. Don't worry so much about the rules. Don't be stupid, but don't stress about them.
SH: I love it!
Katie: Love it!
CW: So good! But can we go back to our recent anger episode, Susan, because what her mission present said to her about women on their period. Hot, ragey anger. So that's all I have to say about that.
SH: Totally agree. Totally agree.
Katie: I couldn't even get past that part. I think as soon as she said that, I was like, I'm uh uh—
CW: Exactly. So bad. Here's what I want to do. Can I, Sarah, have your permission? I want to transcribe your message and I want to mail it to the Liahona Magazine article submission department, because her message needs to be an article. It's so amazing.
SH: Yeah, it's good.
CW: So, so good.
Katie: So good.
CW: Rah, rah, or as Sarah says, huzzah!
SH: Let’s hear advice from Mika.
VM Mika: Hi, I'm Mika and I served a mission a couple of years ago. There's so much that I could say about it, but I've got two pieces of advice. And this first one applies to all missionaries. Instead of telling people how God works, learn from them how God has already been working with them.
My next advice is for female missionaries and that's know you have just as much right to be a missionary. Even though it's not your quote unquote priesthood duty, you hold just as much divine blessings and potential as the male missionaries. God does not need you less than God needs the men. You are not an afterthought or an exception, and if you feel called, then be confident in that.
SH: I grew up in a time when women serving missions was very much, it was sort of the last resort thing that women did at that age. And so I'm really glad that that has changed. I feel like now women really can feel like they absolutely have as much right to be there as the male missionaries.
CW: Well, and I love Mika's line that she says God needs you, you are just as needed as men. And once again, I think all we have to do is flip the script. Can you imagine like a man to a young boy missionary going out saying, God needs young men. You are just as needed as the women. Like you're laughing.
Katie: Exactly.
CW: It's ridiculous.
SH: That tool doesn't ever not work.
CW: It never! Flip the script.
SH: Always works.
CW: Every time.
Katie: Oh, I love this so much. Her quote about don't tell people how God works. I mean, yes, exactly. I wish Mika could have given me advice before I went on my mission. I mean, how many homes did I see with gorgeous statues of the Virgin Mary in front with candles and burning incense?
And in my head, I mean, I'm a kind person, so it's not like I would, but in my head, there was a part of me that was kind of like, you guys don't really know how it works. You don't really know. And that's terrible.Like I want her advice. I want a redo. I want to go back and I want to be able to redo those situations, I would handle them so differently.
SH: I hope you can give yourself a lot of grace about that though, Katie, because absolutely that is what you would think. That's what you'd been trained to [01:15:00] think.
Katie: No, absolutely. But she's great.
CW: Thank you everyone who sent in voicemails today. We are so grateful. Some of those stories were so tender. Some were hard to hear. Some made us laugh out loud. We just have the best listeners, Susan. I am just so grateful for all of them. And Katie, thank you.
Katie:Thank you for having me!
CW: Thanks for coming on and sharing your own experiences as well.
SH: Yeah. Can we have another episode with you soon, Katie? I would love that.
Katie: Let's do lots of episodes. You two are great. I'll talk with you anytime.
SH: Thank you so much.
Katie: Thanks, Katie.
VM Melanie: Melanie calling in from the Bay Area. I'd like to talk about how the church's over indexing on the family actually divides us. Some of my first memories were being at church growing up and hearing the song “Families Can Be Together Forever” and knowing I did not fit into that mold.
Or how my best friend could no longer come to my house once my mother was divorced because she didn't want her daughter to see a house where divorce was normalized.
Or when my mother, who had me at 17 and decided to keep me, was treated terribly by her bishopric because, again, it did not fit that mold.
One of the bravest things I did in church was when I had to teach on the Proclamation on the Family Sunday School, in Gospel Doctrine, because I got up there and I was overcome with emotions, and I sobbed hysterically for three minutes in front of everyone before regaining composure.
As mortifying as it was, it opened up the room and more people shared again and again how the Proclamation had hurt them. People may defend the Proclamation all they want, but they could not deny the pain in that room. I firmly believe the Proclamation uses families as a front to reinforce the patriarchy and enforce anti-LGBT messages.
Jesus did not focus on the family. In fact, in Matthew 12:46 he talks about how his family is not just his mother and brother, but everyone. Patrick Mason said, “the kingdom of God cannot be reduced to a Norman Rockwell portrait of Thanksgiving dinner. The nuclear family can become an idol that binds and alienates us as much as enlightens and binds. Our Heavenly Parents’ plan of salvation was never focused on preserving your family as much as reconciling and exalting their family.” I'd love to hear more about this from you.
VM Samantha: Hi, Susan and Cynthia. I call myself a recovering hustler. My name is Samantha. I'm 28 and I've been a member of the church my entire life.
I have been going through a faith transition, I guess you could say, whatever you want to call it. I haven't been going to church for the last two years and I'm very happy with that. I'm working through it. One thing that I realized, I was just listening to your episode about community and I realized that the way I interact with the church changed once I turned 18 because my sense of community had ultimately changed. I was no longer in Young Women's. Everyone was growing up and going to college. I loved going to church growing up because that's where my community was. Once it felt like that was gone and I was in student wards and married wards, I have never felt that sense of community since and it's really unfortunate. It's really sad.
And I'm realizing as I was listening to your episode that I think that's where my faith transition truly started because church was no longer fun, which is really sad. But, that's where it is, and I'm working through it, and I just mourn with all the other women who feel like they lost their community because of how the church is now.
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