Episode 185 (Transcript) Does That Scripture Mean What You Think it Means?: Dance with the Parable of the Talents

Episode Transcript

Many thanks to listener, Alyssa Riddle, for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app, or can be listened to here on Substack.

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Hi, I'm Susan Hinckley. 

CW: And I'm Cynthia Winward.

SH: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things. And the title of this week's episode is, Does That Scripture Mean What You Think It Means? |A Dance with the Parable of the Talents. I've been wanting to do another one of these for a while, Cynthia.

CW: Me too. 

SH: I think the last one was the Ten Virgins. 

CW: Uh-huh. We should make that a theme. We should just kind of keep running with that - does that scripture mean what you think it means? 

SH: Well, we've done a few where we've taken on scriptures, but we didn't have this name on them. So maybe we should go back and rebrand. 

CW: I kind of wish we did. 

SH: Yeah. 

CW: That would be a good idea because there's kind of endless material when you're a Latter day Saint and you start - and let me just speak for myself - there's been endless material for me as a Latter day Saint when I go back and read scriptures with my new lenses on and I'm like, “Ohh.”

SH: Oh, totally agree. Because I'm used to looking at it and hearing one interpretation. 

CW: My whole life. 

SH: Never occurred to me that there could be more interpretations. 

CW: Imagine that. Well, let's just jump in then. If we're going to be talking about the parable of the talents. Well, first of all, you and I went back and forth, and we'll get to that in a minute when we read the parable, but a talent is money, right?

So we wanted to call it like, the bags of gold maybe instead, but we're like, well, LDS people, we really know this parable as the parable of the talent. So we're going to kind of stick with that. And it's another parable, just like the one we tackled last time, the parable of the 10 virgins. It's also in Matthew 25.

So that right there should be a clue that we'll have some foreshadowing here. So, yeah, it comes right after the parable of the 10 virgins. I'll be honest, Susan, I've lost count of how many women have written to us about that episode. 

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SH: That episode got more attention than anything we've ever talked about besides garments, I think.

CW: Well, that makes me actually really happy then, because I don't think it did get that much attention. So in this chapter in Matthew 25, it's near the end of Jesus's life. So he's kind of on a roll, as I see it, when he's talking about grace. Like how in the movies, when someone really wants to make a point and they grab someone by like their shirt collar and like slam them against a wall, I kind of picture Jesus, He's like, just taking people by their collar and saying, “do you see what I'm saying? I'm not going to be here that much longer. Do you get this or not?” So that's one way; I'm sure Jesus would never do that to someone, but I kind of like the image of him trying to knock some sense into someone: into us for crying out loud. 

SH: And I mean, if you'd flip tables, you might grab lapels. It's not outside the realm of possibility as I think of him. 

CW: Well, and you know how we - speaking of scripture - when we talk about the Book of Mormon, we always say, “it was written for us today”? 

SH: Mm-Hmm.

CW: It was meant for us today. Well, I am going to say that I think that this parable. Again, let me just point to myself. I think this parable is for me today. 

I hope it's for a broader audience of Latter-day Saints, but I know it's been deeply meaningful to you and to me and to others, and we'll get into that because I think it just dovetails so perfectly with the 10 virgins, where Jesus was going. And we talked about that in episode 140. And then in episode 74, I think it also goes along with the laborers in the vineyard. So more grace. And who can forget like the prodigal son, even more grace. And that's, we talked about that in episode 16. 

SH: I will link to all of them in our show notes. So, if people have a hard time finding them on their podcast app, they can go to our show notes and go right to them.

CW: Perfect. So, I kind of want to start out just, here was my thought in my head as I was working on this outline: like, has grace ever been more needed for us as Latter-day Saints? Like more than ever in church, I'm hearing so many messages of obedience and qualifying, and it just feels heavy. And so, when I start to read these parables about grace, I feel light. The yoke is easy, the burden is light, kind of a thing. 

SH: Agreed. 

CW: So, I'm going to say that this scripture is very, very appropriate for Latter-day Saints to study today. If you happen to be feeling  like maybe you and I've been feeling lately. So I love this kind of quick summary of the parable by Episcopal priest Robert Farrer Capon in his book, Kingdom, Grace, Judgment, Paradox, Outrage, and Vindication in The Parables of Jesus.

So that's quite a mouthy title there, but I'm going to refer to Robert Farrer Capon quite a bit. I might just call him RFC. Cause I love him that much. He deserves that kind of a moniker. But anyway, here's what he said about of all these parables and how they tie together. 

“As the parable of the ten virgins was about the happiness of the bridegroom at his wedding, so this one is about the ebullience of the Lord's joy at throwing his money around. It is the theme of the divine party again. The party that lurks beneath the surface of history and calls only for a recognition by faith. It is the fatted calf served up for a prodigal who did nothing but come home in faith. It is the free champagne and caviar for wedding guests who did nothing but trust the king's insistence on providing fancy costumes and party hats.It is the full pay for next to no work at all given to great pickers who just said yes to a last minute promise.”

We could end it right there actually. 

SH: Yeah, well, when you think of all those parables, is that the message that you feel like you've received from them all your life? 

CW: In the pews? No. 

SH: No. 

CW: In my own? On my own. Yes. I see what you're saying. Yes. Right. That wasn't the message. 

SH: That wasn't the message that I feel like I was taught, but it's the message that I'm finding when I read them now. 

CW: Mm hmm. 

SH: Which, I mean, is a comment on a lot of what you get from the scriptures obviously depends on what you bring to them, right?

CW: Mm hmm.

SH: So I am a dance partner looking for grace now. And so when I am engaging with the scriptures, then I get grace. Messages about grace are what are going to stand out to me. 

CW: Good point. Well, Susan, how about you go ahead and let's just read the parable so we can jog everyone's memory of what we're going to be talking about today.

SH: Okay. You know what? I'm going to read from the KJV and the reason that I am is that I feel like that language is so familiar to Latter day Saints. 

CW: Okay. 

SH: I want it to sound like we're talking about the story that we're used to, right? 

CW: Okay. 

SH: And so we are going to focus on the account in Matthew today. This parable also shows up in Luke, but there are some differences in that one. We're going to focus specifically using the language from the Matthew account.

 “For the kingdom of heaven is as a man traveling into a far country who called his own servants and delivered unto them his goods. And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one, to every man according to his several ability, and straightway took his journey.

Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents. And likewise, he that had received two, he also gained other two. But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money. After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.

And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliverest unto me five talents. Behold, I have gained beside them five talents more. His Lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant, thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of thy Lord. 

He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliverest unto me two talents, behold, I have gained two other talents beside them. His Lord said unto him, well done, good and faithful servant, thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things.Enter thou into the joy of thy Lord. 

Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee, that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed. And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth. Lo, there thou hast that is thine.

His Lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, Thou newest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed. Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury. Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

For unto every one that hath shall be given. And he shall have abundance, but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath. And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

CW: Whoa. 

SH: I know. So let's break it down, Cynthia.

CW: Well, the first thing I thought of is - and it kind of goes with some of the other parables that that we've talked about in previous episodes - is the absolute absurdity should be a clue. Like this parable is just so absurd that that should be a clue to us that there's probably a deeper meaning here than like literally burying things in the earth or something.

And in the NRSV Oxford edition, it says that in the commentary -  which is the reason I love the Oxford edition of the NRSV, because it has all kinds of cool little side articles that help me understand things. Cause what the heck is a talent? I don't know. So it says that one talent was worth 15 years wages for a laborer. So if you think about it in this parable, like five talents or five bags of gold is 75 years wages. So this is a lot of money that we're talking about here. I've even heard others, other commentary saying that it could have been in the millions. So I'm not sure where; I mean, maybe millions could have been 75 years wages?I don't know. Either way, it's an absurd amount. 

SH: Yeah. And let's just  pause there for just a second. What it is, is a master handing to his servants all of his money, and it's an absurd amount of money. 

CW: Yeah. That right there makes it absurd that he's handing it off to servants. 

SH: Yes. 

CW: Yeah. That reminded me of a Rachel Held Evans quote that we had turned into a social media post.I'll link to that, which also I think links to the sermon where she originally said it. And she said, “grace is already out of hand when God said, ‘forgive them for they know not what they do’.”

SH: I love that phrase. I love “grace out of hand.” 

CW: Out of hand. So yeah, it's absurd. Grace is absurd. It's completely out of hand, it's run amok.