Episode 184 (Transcript): Am I Allowed to Change? : A Conversation with Jana Spangler

Episode Transcript

Many thanks to listener, Caitlyn Hardy, for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app, or can be listened to here on Substack.

---

CW: Hello, I'm Cynthia Winward. 

SH: And I'm Susan Hinckley. 

CW: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things. And the title of this week's episode is, “Am I Allowed to Change?” That's a meaty question we're going to be discussing today and it's probably above our pay grade, Susan…?

SH: It's definitely above my pay grade. 

CW: So we invited Jana Spangler to come on. Welcome Jana. 

JS: Thank you. 

SH: Hi Jana. 

JS: Hi Susan. 

CW: We're so glad to have you here to talk basically about adult development today because I think our title kinda says it all that so often we think, well, am I really allowed to change?

Should I be changing? Do I have to stick with what I thought when I was 21 for the rest of my life? All those kinds of things. But before we jump into those questions, Jana, for the three or four people who've never heard of you listening, can you just give us a quick intro of who you are and what you do?

What brings you to this topic? 

---

---

JS: Sure. So I am a integral professional coach. So I've been doing this work for about seven and a half years. I work in conjunction with Symmetry Counseling, which is a group that works with both therapy and coaching. And my particular emphasis is on faith transition and relationship.

And the coaching school that I went to is called Integral Coaching Canada. And they actually use adult development in the way that they approach coaching. So I did a lot of studies when I was getting my certification and I've done continuing education ever since in this area, because I'm just really interested in it and, and how it can help us understand one another.

CW: Wonderful. Before we jump into our conversation, Susan kinda wants to kick off our intro, our topic, and then we'll get, and then I'll kinda MC us today and we'll run through some questions. So, what do you, what do you have to say, Susan, about this topic? 

SH: Oh, boy, Cynthia, as you know…

CW: Are you lying down yet?

SH: Change is one of my favorite slash least favorite topics, you know. It's like, at 60, I'm, I'm starting to feel kind of like I'm an expert on change just because of all the holy trouble that it has made in my own life. But I really wish that I had understood a lot more about it at 30, because that could have helped me expect and accept all of the ages and stages that I've been through, you know? 

I just had no idea really how foundational change is to life and how I was going to be expected to roll with everything, basically. And I think that for the purposes of this conversation, there is something in particular about being LDS that complicates it for us. Because I feel like, you know, you're supposed to attain a certain level of faith, and that's supposed to remain constant throughout your life.

You're supposed to lead a certain kind of church life, and that's always supposed to look the same way. You're supposed to be a certain kind of child, and a certain kind of parent, and a certain kind of spouse. And you're supposed to never deviate from that. You know, enduring to the end means: maintain all of these things.

And life is gonna force changes all the time. And I feel like you can sort of keep your stiff knees and keep your death grip on everything for a while, but eventually something has to give. That's at least been my experience and I am willing to bet that that's just part of the human experience, and I'm a control freak.

That is not a surprise to anyone who is listening. So it, it, it has been miserable for me to get to a place where I understand and accept and even welcome change, because before I was able to get there, you know, I was doing damage to my own relationships, I was making myself miserable, my mental health and well-being were [00:05:00] not good.

So, I, I've come to understand that fighting change and growth, was really fighting what the work of my life was supposed to be about. I feel like, Jana, someone needs to write a book called, “What to Expect When You're a Human.” And that book would have helped me a lot. So basically that's what I want today.

That's what I'm looking for in this conversation. Could you give us the outline of what to expect when we're human?

CW: When we're a human. Susan, it's so funny because I know I recently said this on an episode that you know how when you would take your kid to the pediatrician when they were seven and they would hand you the paper saying, “Here's what seven-year-olds kinda do.”

SH: Exactly!

CW: They should have handed, they should have handed the parent also the paper saying, “Here's what to expect in your thirties or in your forties” or something. I mean, I'm sure it's not all designated by age, but really! Who is handing me the darn piece of paper…?

SH: I got no instructions. I got zero instructions.

CW: Zero instruction. So that I could have used that book also when I was 30 years old about what kind of, what are the ages and stages of being a grownup for crying out loud? That, that would be great. And I, and I'm sure we could still use that today because we're not over, I know we're getting older, Susan, but we're not in the grave yet.

SH: I’m not dead yet, Cynthia.

CW: We're showing up to hear all of Jana's advice about adult development, so….

SH: Yep, still willing to change. 

CW: Still willing. 

JS: Ya know, I, I am chuckling at your question of what to expect when you're human, right? Because I think one of the most human things is to want to know what to expect. 

SH: We've got an even more foundational problem than I knew about. Awesome.

JS: You know, we are, we are creatures that want to feel safe. We want to have connection. We want some pretty basic things and our bodies really wanna know what to expect. And unfortunately, the nature of life is that we don't really know. 

CW: Sure.

JS: And there is no real path. The path is made by walking. I'll just say that.

CW: That’s also a good title for a book. 

JS: It's, it's from a poet. I did steal it. That's not my phrase.

CW: Oh, okay. Well, that's beautiful. 

JS: But it's, several people have said it. Joseph Campbell said it in a different way that if you can see the path laid out ahead of you, you know it's not your path. So.

The path is made with every step you take. That's a Joseph Campbell. And then a lovely poet made it into “Traveler, there is no path. The path is made by walking.” 

CW: Oh, that's beautiful. Already that makes my shoulders…

SH: Relax a little bit?

CW: Just a little bit. Yeah. Well, let's jump in then. Can we start out, Susan alluded in her intro kinda to like being LDS kind of complicates this a little bit, so let's just dive in right there because I really think that many of us, most of us, I don't know, we make these huge giganto life decisions like in our early twenties and we think, Oh, I've made all the important decisions now. I'm done changing, and so all that's left to do is to endure. I'm putting air quotes: “endure to the end.”

That's a favorite phrase of ours. So can you kinda speak to that naivete? Because I'm raising my hand. Nobody can see it. But I literally thought that when I was a new bride at 21. I was like, Oh, I've done all the major growing in my life and now what's left is to endure to the end. And it's the most ridiculous thing I ever thought, but that's kinda what I thought.

So, I don't know! How does being LDS kind of complicate this idea that we're not really changing anymore. We're just enduring. 

JS: Yeah. Well, I'll, I'll start by saying there are lots of different ways to change and there is a lot of research in different aspects of this out there. There've been some kind of major names in development, starting with people like Freud or Piaget, Erikson, Lovinger, yeah, lots of names of people.

We are more familiar in talking about faith development of, you know, Fowler or Brian McLaren's stages. But there, there have been a lot of researchers. And when you look up any of these researchers, there are all kinds of critics of it, which kind of speaks to the fact that it's really, really complicated.

And I don't know that there have been, there has been any one seminal study that can say, this is the way it is, because the truth is adult development is really, really, really messy. 

CW: Mm. 

JS: And, and no one does it the same way. Exactly. 

SH: Right. Right. 

JS: But what these researchers do point to, if you take the, the, the whole of them and line them up, there are certain things that [00:10:00] seem to line up for humans.

And the one thing we can point to is that it seems like it should be obvious, but as we experience more in life, our perspective, our paradigm widens to include more and more and more of reality. So where it starts, maybe with the individual, it goes to my group, people like me, and then maybe it grows to, people, to include people that are not like me.

And, and then maybe it includes all of the world and all of creation. So that seems to be the one thing we can point to is that our perspective seems to get wider. Also, it doesn't always. So…