Episode 181 (Transcript): What About the Sacrament?

Episode Transcript

Many thanks to listener, Rebecca Graham, for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app, or can be listened to here on Substack.

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CW: Hello, I am Cynthia Winward. 

SH: And I'm Susan Hinckley. 

CW: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things. The title of today's episode is “What About the Sacrament?”

SH: We've been wanting to have this episode for, gosh, at least all of last season. 

CW: For reals. 

SH: Yeah, this is a conversation we've wanted to have for quite a while for a variety of reasons. And so that's kind of why we put that nice general title on there, “What About the Sacrament?” Because we've just had some things that we wanted to talk about relating to the sacrament. 

CW: Well, and I think a lot of those thoughts that we want to share today stemmed from, like you said, we've been wanting to have this convo, I'm guessing since October, November, and it was up to you. So I'm excited for our listeners to hear maybe some of those reasons that we'll get into about why. Why did we want to talk about this for months and months before we did? 

SH: Ooh, I think maybe it started last summer for me, actually. And I’ll get to why that is in just a second. I kind of want to add a tagline to our title today, which would be, “Whose Table is This?” Because I feel like this episode is gonna be shifting our grace peddling to focus on the sacrament. We're gonna do some grace peddling around the sacrament today. 

CW: Well, I like that. This could go under the umbrella of grace peddling. A lot of things could, but definitely the sacrament. 

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SH: Agreed. I mean, I feel like if we believe that our modern day sacrament is a reflection of Jesus’ original bread and wine, Last Supper with his disciples, then that raises some questions about how the rules around it have evolved and how it's practiced in the modern-day church. Personally, I have always loved the sacrament as part of our worship service, but as my faith has continued to evolve, my relationship to the sacrament — like what it means to me and how it functions in my personal spiritual life — has also evolved.

It had to, right? And so giving myself permission to let that happen. Like, that was one of the harder things, because the sacrament is such a set thing, and I've done it how many — how many weeks have I been alive? That's how many times I've sat through the sacrament, right? I've participated in it so many times, and it hasn't changed across my lifetime. The ordinance hasn't changed. 

And so, giving myself permission to let it evolve for me personally, I think was probably facilitated in large part because COVID completely interrupted the sacrament for me. It just stopped. 

CW: Gosh, same. 

SH: Yeah. It never occurred to me that sacrament could just go away.

CW: Mhmm.

SH: But there it was. And so that gave me an opportunity to come back and re-engage differently. 

Here's how I know when this wanting to have this conversation started for me. It was because last summer was the first time that I went and visited the Episcopal church. 

CW: That's right!

SH: Yeah. And I had this big spiritual experience that first time with the sacrament part of their service.

And I know I was texting you frantically, as soon as I got home, as my mind was blown. Even aside from the fact that the celebrant was a woman, and one of the magical things about that day. 

CW: You could stop right there. 

SH: Yeah, I know. One of the magical things was every voice was a woman in that particular service that day. So yeah, that was amazing.

But so the celebrant was a woman, but also there were just things about the way they do the communion that were really moving to me. So at the very beginning, the first thing that happened was she declared the sacrament to be God's table, not the church's table. 

CW: [gasp]

SH: This is how they introduced the whole thing.

CW: Do you know if that's part of their, like, script? Could you tell? Or was she just ad-libbing? 

SH: Yes, it is. I've been to another Episcopal service in a different church since then, and they did it too. So, yes, I think it's part of what they do. It's God's table, not the church's table. And so she was emphasizing that everyone there, anyone who showed up that day is willing or is welcome to partake.

CW: Wow.

SH: And it was like this huge light bulb went on for me at that moment, like just showing up qualifies (there's one of my favorite Latter day Saint words) it qualifies you to partake, right? And that's, every time I attend [00:05:00], they say that same thing, make that disclaimer, and it pricks my heart every single time.

CW: Awh. 

SH: Because it just reminds me that the sacrament is an ordinance of belonging. Not some kind of sifting or separation. Sacrament is an ordinance of belonging. And so showing up at the table readies us to receive that. 

The other thing that I love in their service is that when you step up to the bar to receive the sacrament, you cup your hands and their pastor always describes it as, like, creating a manger with your hands and the wafer is placed in them.

And to me, that is like this physical symbol of willingness. It's subtly different from our practice of reaching into a tray to take bread. It's holding out your hands and asking to receive something. 

CW: That's cool. 

SH: Yeah, it is to me too. It's meaningful to me. And so, all of this, Cynthia, and I couldn't stop thinking about it that day or since, points to your favorite word, which is —

CW: “Willing,” “willingness.”

SH: Yes, I think that that's the pin on which this whole thing turns. Because I feel like the shift of focusing on our willingness is really a huge, sort of seismic, shift in our approach to thinking about the sacrament. Like focusing on our personal worthiness Is looking inward and backward, but I feel like focusing on feelings of personal willingness is looking forward and outward.

And I feel like partaking of the sacrament, should reorient our focus to our own discipleship every week. I mean, what is discipling but looking outward with love and other people and looking forward with hope? That's what it means to be a disciple, as I think about it, anyway.

So that's where this conversation came from. That's all the background. 

CW: And it's almost your year anniversary. 

SH: It's almost my year anniversary. 

CW: Of having this epiphany. So I'm excited to hear all these new thinky thoughts that you've had, maybe, in this last year about it. When you said that at least in the Episcopal church, just showing up qualifies you. I mean, that's willingness, right? 

SH: That’s willingness. 

CW: That's putting your one foot in front of the other and just saying, help me. So I love that. I love that. And I mean, if I could add my own tagline to this episode, I would, I mean, okay. So at first we thought we would title this, “We Don't Believe Our Own Stuff: The Sacrament.” But then the more we talked about it, we were like, well, no, it would be more like, we don't believe Jesus's stuff, you know, about the sacrament, because we kind of have all these like, uh, does our church really believe this? It seems like this is just more Jesus-centered. 

So I don't know. I mean, after diving into this topic, I'm not, I mean, in preparing for this, I read all the of the accounts of the Last Supper in all four of the gospels. 

SH: Right. 

CW: And it's really amazing to me, like, how much our church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has added on to that first sacramental experience.

SH: Mhmm. 

CW: So I think that's when I decided, and then when I brought it to you, you agreed, that like, we can't really call this, “We Don't Believe Our Own Stuff.” ‘Cause there just seems to be this huge disparity between what I read in the four gospels and then, kind of, what I see on Sunday afternoons when I go to church.

So I found this great website that actually has all four gospels’ take on the Last Supper. So we'll link to that if people want to go and just read all four back-to-back. Like, it was really kind of an interesting exercise and more on that as we get into this. 

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SH: Alright, well, let's talk about that. I feel like any conversation about the sacrament should start with where it all comes from, right? So let's revisit that scene for a second in the Bible. And to do that, I quickly grabbed the account from Matthew 26. And that's where we see Jesus breaking bread with his disciples. 

And it says, “and as they were eating, Jesus took bread and blessed it and break it and gave it to the disciples and said, take eat. This is my body. And he took the cup and gave thanks and gave it to them, saying, drink ye all of it, for this is my blood of the new testament which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” So that's what we're talking about. I think it's interesting. I feel like, I think he's saying, drink ye all, meaning all of you drink of this, right?

CW: Mhmm.

SH: So this makes me want to talk very first about sacrament and worthiness. 

CW: [laughing] We're just going right to worthiness, isn't it? 

SH: We're going straight there. 

CW: I wish we would've put that last. Ah! [still laughing] No, no, it's good. Let’s put that first, while we still have energy. 

SH: Well, I just feel like there's some telling things about this scene, because we see Judas betray Jesus just a few verses earlier.

in this chapter [00:10:00]. So we already know that Judas is not worthy at this point, right? 

CW: Yeah. 

SH: And in fact, Jesus knows that others at the table are also not going to distinguish themselves in this story, right, that's unfolding. 

CW: [laughing] Looking at you, Peter.

SH: Right. Peter's going to deny him and then some of his disciples are going to fall asleep on him when he needs them. So I have a really hard time connecting the dots between worthiness and the sacrament as I see it depicted in this scene that we have in the Bible.

CW: Yeah. And that's one of the things that stood out to me. There are different verses that kind of describe Judas's role, you know, at the Last Supper. And so it was interesting. I just had a conversation with my daughter the other day. She said, “Mom, have you kind of heard that phrase and it's kind of buzzing around social media, ‘Judas ate too.’” And I was like, no, I hadn't! And so I went and Googled it and Susan, you would not believe the phrase, “Judas ate too.” 

Tattoos. The biggest one is tattoos. 

SH: Interesting, okay. 

CW: The people are getting tattoos with the phrase, “Judas ate too.” It's on t-shirts. It's everywhere. And one blogger wrote this. I just loved it. She said, “Hours before the death of Jesus, Judas ate too. Jesus fed Judas too. Jesus prayed for Judas too. Jesus washed Judas's feet too. I struggle to fathom that kind of love.

A love that would feed the mouth that deceived you. A love that would wash the treasonous feet of the traitor. I honestly struggle to comprehend it. And then, suddenly, I realize that I'm Judas. And in that moment, I'm so thankful and altogether overwhelmed that Judas ate too.”

So yeah, if Judas got to partake of the sacrament after he wasn't quote unquote “worthy,” and Jesus knew that, and he was still cool with giving him the sacrament, then how is worthiness — how did we get worthiness all wrapped up in the sacrament?

SH: Okay, but does it surprise you? 

CW: No.

SH: It doesn't surprise me because this is what people do. I feel like this is what human beings do, right? We draw lines between ourselves and other people and I hardly think that our church is the first one to invent the sacrament being a line. I'm guessing that blogger that you just quoted is not a Latter-day Saint. Is that right?