Episode 180 (Transcript): Embracing Your Journey: A Conversation with Mary Cox

Episode Transcript

Many thanks to listener, Caitlyn Hardy, for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app, or can be listened to here on Substack.

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SH: Hi, I'm Susan Hinckley. 

CW: And I am Cynthia Winward. 

SW: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things, and the title of today's episode is “Embracing Your Journey,” a conversation with Mary Cox. Hi Mary. 

CW: Welcome!

MC: Hi.

SW: We are so, so happy to have you. We have never met until this morning. And so it's nice to make your acquaintance, but the great thing about it is everyone is about to make your acquaintance. And I think that that is going to help a lot of our listeners because here's the thing about you, Mary. The reason we picked you out for this conversation is that we've been watching you. Don't get creeped out, but we've been watching you a little bit on our Substack chats and you are a gifted online supporter. That's one thing I know about you, for sure.

MC: Thank you. 

SH: You’re a gifted, space-maker, and you're a wise woman, and I want to be around you, and I want to learn more from you.

And so, when we started thinking about who we wanted to feature in these conversations this season, Cynthia and I both said, wait a minute, who is Mary on our Substacks? 

CW: Where's that Mary lady? 

SH: That Mary lady. Yeah.

MC: She's so sassy. 

CW: Hallelujah. 

SH: So let's start with you telling us a little bit about yourself. Anything that you would like our listeners to know and anything that you help might contextualize this conversation for us. 

MC: I think it's important to know how old I am because I'm 54. So to me, that means that I was born and bred in the world of Ezra Taft Benson's 1987 talk. And that, that matters. That matters to my lived experience, right?

My children don't have that experience except for through me. So my age matters because my experiences matter for that time period. The other thing that I think is really important to know about me is I voted for Trump in 2016 and that's kind of who I was. Right? Which really also says something about, about growth and about learning and about changing and about really, I love when you guys use the word transform or transformation.

That's what I feel like I've done. And it seems like so long ago, but when I just do the math, it's not that long ago. So I think, I think that's a… that's important to know about me. Let me, let me also just say I've been married for 33 years. I have four adult children and they have all walked this path with me and their own individual paths and that's been also really interesting.

When you learn from your children, that is just a gift. And I have really, really enjoyed that part of my journey. It's really listening to these to these little people. For me, they're just little. They're just my babies. But yet they're so wise. And they share, are just willing to share their view of the world with me.

And that has been really, really beneficial to me. Part of why I love the chat space is because I'm really comfortable with one-on-one. I love to just chat with individuals. And. I'm going to school. I never went to school before. I'm back in school. I'm working to be a counselor. Because we're not okay.

Women in the church, out of the church, just women in general, we're not doing very well. And, If we can help each other, if we can sort of hold on to each other as we're going through things and as we're learning how to be vulnerable and talk, I think we can, just, we can support. That's the word I want to look. That's the word I want to say. 

We can support each other if we're willing to just see each other as we are and that's why I love the chat and Substack so much. So. There you go. 

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CW: Well, now it all makes sense why you're such a good helper and supporter in our Substack Friday chats, because this is obviously near and dear to your heart [00:05:00] if you're choosing to go back to school, not as an 18-year-old, right?

Because you feel passionately about helping other women. That's just so beautiful. Thank you. Can I say thank you on behalf of being a 50-year-old woman who probably needs more therapy? Thank you, Mary. 

MC: Well, someday it'll be, it'll, and, and I've also thought maybe I don't go that route, right? Maybe I'm just learning all of these things so I can support myself so I can support other women as we are right now without any formal training or in my office, right?

Just all the learning is good and helpful.

SH: Right. 

MC: So, I've really enjoyed that part of this part of my journey. 

SH: And has therapy been helpful to you on your journey? Is that something that you have found value in, a gift you want to give other people? 

MC: Therapy for me has been vital, absolutely vital in finding who I am.

My experience is in the church. I lost who I was because I was really good at doing all of the boxes, right? I checked everything over and over and over again. But who was I at the end when all my kids were grown up and I was in a house with me and my husband…?

Who am I and where what do I do now is kind of what how I felt, and through the work that you do in therapy, that like the self, the internal work that's the only way that I've been able to just be myself, finally be who I am instead of having my life be all about doing things.

Now I can just be myself.

CW: Oh yeah, does that sound familiar, Susan? 

SH: I have so much to say about this. Call me later, Mary. 

MC: I mean, it's so important.

CW: It is so important. 

SH: It’s so important, and one of the things that I've come to realize through my own therapy, actually, is sort of the ways, not that being in the church or marrying young or all, all of the things that have sort of been hallmarks of my life as a Latter-day Saint woman.

Not that they took myself away from me. It's that I gave myself away. I stepped into this role and gave myself away. As part of that. And so figuring out how to get that self back has not been as easy as it might sound. I mean, it seems like it would just be something you could just decide. I gave it away, I can take it back.

Not so easy. So therapy has been vital for me as well. In trying to untangle that.

MC: I remember my husband asking just I said something about finding myself and he literally couldn't understand how, what, what that even meant. 

SH: Right. 

MC: Right? And so it was just really, I, I, it, it was amazing that he couldn't get it, but yet that was really important to me that I discovered who I was without all of the other things that I could do, right?

I could do my way right into heaven, but that's not really what I wanted. 

CW: Oh, yeah. I love that.

SH: Love it. Oh, let's get to this conversation. Thank you for the intro. I'm going to let Cynthia take us through the discussion today. 

CW: Okay. Well, we have kind of the same handful of questions, Susan, that I think we love to ask most of our guests when we do these embracing your journey episodes, because we all have like long and lengthy answers to them because that's just, there are a lot, there's just so much overlap as Latter-day Saint women.

So, how about we just kind of jump into like, give us a quick snapshot, Mary, of your LDS life. Like what are some of maybe any memorable experiences that really shaped you in your youth or as an adult raising your children? We'd just love to hear more. 

MC: So I, when I saw the question, I really tried to sort of dig for like a moment and it, I don't have a moment.

All I have is all of the lists of everything that I have done over all of the years, right? All of the, right. So it's not, and I was, I was a little bit sad about that. I was a little bit sad about, Oh. Well, how come I didn't feel anything when I did this or how come I can't go back and tap into something in this activity that I organized, right?

It was all just a blur. And so that to me is significant for how my journey has been. When I look back, I can just blend girl’s camp in with treks, in with youth conference, in with primary chorister, in with ward choirs, in with stake musical production. I can just blend it all together and not pick out who I was or where I was in any of those moments. 

And I don't, I didn't really know what to do with that. As I was writing that out, I was really sad and concerned that I sort of allowed that to happen, but I also don't think I had any choices about it. So, so I would, I would [00:10:00] probably describe myself as like one of those true blue Mormons that just did all of the things, checked all of the boxes, was exactly how she was supposed to be to get things done.

SH: And as you say that, as you're rattling off that list of all your doings, I'm thinking, Oh, she's that woman, right? I mean, it's like, I have a clear picture of the kind of Latter-day Saint woman that I think of as having that kind of resume of doing in the church. And I think that's telling. But like my mind went immediately to a specific type. 

MC: Right. It's, it's in my world, the question me and my husband would ask each other at the end of an activity or at the end of a day or at the end of whatever it was, we would literally look at each other and say, what's next? Like, what's the next thing that we are gonna be participating in and in charge of?

And then. That happens, and then, what's next? And it was constantly that. And I thought that was good. I thought it was so good. I put a vinyl lettering quote on my wall that said, “That's What We Do.” So me and my husband… 

CW: Wait, really? It said, “That's what we do.” 

MC: Yes. That's what we do, with an exclamation point. Yeah.

CW: Mary, Mary! Exclamation point.

MC: And it was, And I thought that it felt good. I thought that that was what we were supposed to be doing. 

SH: Well, I mean, it probably did feel good. Is that, is that okay that it, for it to have felt good? 

CW: Yeah, being a helper is good. 

MC: Yes. Yes. It felt validating, which I don't know if that is good. 

CW: Okay. I see what you’re saying. 

SH: Okay, oh, I need you to say more about that as we go along.

CW: When you said that, at the end of whatever, maybe you went on trek or something with your husband and you guys would say to each other, what's next? Did you say like, Oh, what's next? Like you're exhausted? Or did you say what's next? As in like this filled your cup, maybe like you were just saying a second ago, like being validated.

And so you were looking for the next thing to validate you. I don't know. Say more about the what's next. 

MC: I think it's in between those. I think we were resigned. To just do the next thing.

CW: Resigned!

MC: Right? This is what we do. So we just take a, take a quick breath and keep moving forward because we're resigned to keep on this path, right?

So there was a lot of obligation and expectation mixed in there with maybe a little bit of choice. But, I would describe it as being resigned to do the next thing. One thing that I did love is that's how me and my husband built our relationship, was to do these things together because not everybody has that opportunity.

We had the same interests in doing these specific things. So that was glorious. And I wouldn't change that for anything. But underneath that, what did it, where was I in that? Sure, our relationship was good, but right, but was it all about this doing? Was it all about just the next right thing per se?

Or yeah, there's, it's, it's a lot. To me it's like really heavy and mixed with hard things and good things.

CW: Well, I think it's always a mix. Yeah, it's complicated.

SH: Can I ask where you have spent the bulk of your church life? Were you doing these things somewhere on the Wasatch Front? Were you, I mean, were you out in the, quote, air quotes, mission field?

Where, where? 

MC: We've been here in Mesa for 25 years. 

SH: Ah, Mesa. So, okay. Yeah. 

CW: So that actually brings more context, I think, to the conversation because you are in an area with a very large LDS population.

SH: Right, right. This is why I asked the question. It does give more context because did they have a large pool to draw from or were you the person doing all these things because you were the only person in the branch or very small ward who could do them.

MC: No. 

SH: Okay. That's telling. 

CW: And, and maybe we'll get into this, but do you have regrets about looking back being that busy?

MC: No, because only because I have done so much therapy that I cannot look back at my old self, my old patterns, my old behaviors, and have anything but love for her because she was doing the very best that she knew how with the tools that she had.

The only tools that she had for validation is doing. The only tools that she, that she knew how to build relationships with was controlling the room, right? And making sure everybody else looks the very best that they could do. That's all [00:15:00] I knew how to do. So I love her for that, right? Where would I have been without her doing that, without those skills, without those talents, without that, I, I cannot.

I cannot shame her into non-existence. So. 

SH: Okay, can I ask you a follow-up question? 

MC: Yes. 

SH: I'm going to pick on you from your notes here, because you have some…

MC: Yes, please do.

SH: …notes here, and I'm looking at them. And they say, but she was exhausted, and her children and family structure suffered. More importantly, she suffered.

MC: Yes. 

SH: Can you say a little bit more about that?