Episode 176 (Bonus): What About Season 8?

Episode Transcript

Many thanks to listener, Caitlyn Hardy, for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app, or can be listened to here on Substack.

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SH: Hello, I'm Susan Hinckley. 

CW: And I am Cynthia Winward. 

SH: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things. And the title of this week's episode is, “What About Season 8?” 

CW: What about Season Eight? 

SH: That's the question, Cynthia. We're going to do a little teaser episode today, short episode, just kind of a preview of coming attractions. I don't think we've ever done this before. 

CW: No, I was just thinking that. 

SH: I don't know why, but we're doing it now. 

CW: Maybe because we have been planning so hard behind the scenes that we're kind of excited to talk about? 

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SH: Well, I feel like we're really approaching this season with a specific focus. Usually we've started our conversations and then the sort of theme of the season reveals itself to us.

This time we're going after something pretty specific right from the beginning. 

CW: We are. Let's just jump right in then. 

SH: You bet. 

CW: So, for our listeners who may not know, Susan and I love to send Marco Polos to each other. They're almost always when I'm on my walk, you're on your walk. It's when we actually have time to just brainstorm ideas.

And so, there was one day where I had gone back and listened to a favorite episode of In Good Faith. That podcast by our friend, Steven Kapp Perry. And I had a favorite episode of his that he put out with the guest, Reza Aslan. And I read his books. And so I was excited to go back and revisit that episode.

And after I listened to it, I immediately sent you a Marco Polo from the Provo trail, saying, “Susan, I really love this metaphor.” And you said, “Aha, that would be like a perfect opener to talking about what we're diving into for Season Eight.” So here was the metaphor. This is a quote from Reza. 

He said, “If you want to draw water, you do not dig six one-foot wells. You dig one six-foot well. Islam is my six-foot well. I like the symbols and metaphors it uses to describe the relationship between God and humanity. But I recognize that the water I am drawing is the same water that every other well around me is drawing. And no matter the well, the water is just as sweet.”

SH: I still love that metaphor just as much as the day you Marco Polo’d it to me. I love that. 

CW: It's pretty good. And he has said it in many, many places, but we will link to BYU's In Good Faith podcast, cause it's a fabulous interview. Steven does a great job there. But I was thinking, I'm so glad that you love that metaphor too, and that we were going to use that for a springboard to this conversation here.

Because Mormonism has been my six-foot well, and still is. 

SH: Same. 

CW: It was the scaffolding of my youth. It's the template that I used as a parent for my children. It's the lens that I originally came to know God through, that I read the scriptures through. It's the language that I use to name the mysteries of the universe.

It's my fellow community of clumsy saints. I'm one of the clumsy saints along with them. And I'm still here. I'm still here drawing from that six-foot well, even if I speak my Mormon language with an accent. This is still my spiritual home. So, those were my reasons that the metaphor really resonated with me.

I don't know what made you think that would be a good springboard for Season Eight?

SH: Well, I think we have a lot of listeners who find themselves in a place where they're thinking, do I even want this water anymore? And they start thinking about other places, maybe, that they could or should get water or whether they're even interested in water anymore.

And I had the same experience with that metaphor that you just described. I can think of all these reasons that I have, that my well is located here, right? That this is the ground that I'm in. And so when it, when I came to a place where the wheels were sort of coming off, I had a decision to make about whether I wanted to stay in this ground or not.

And so I feel like a lot of our listeners arrive at the At Last She Said It space, sort of, with the same kinds of questions that I was having. And I was thinking, you know after all of the stuff of the past few weeks….

CW: What stuff?

SH: All of the noise…well…

CW: I’m kidding, I’m kidding. 

SH: All of the noise in the last few weeks, it's hard for me to ever want to hear the words “power and authority” again in my life as an LDS woman. Just stop saying those words, right? They’re a bit radioactive for me right now. But, also Cynthia, who gave men permission to ruin those words forever? So. Right now I'm taking those words back and our new season is arriving just in time for those words to get repurposed.

Forget about the, their previous definitions that we've had in the church, or lack of definitions, as you and I have talked about. Both a problem. I don't want to talk one more [00:05:00] second right now about institutional power or authority. I don't want to talk about some nebulous power that I get or don't get because someone else bestows it upon me.

I don't want to talk about any of those things. But I do want to talk about women tapping into our personal spiritual power. And I want to focus on who or what gives us the authority to do that. Spoiler, Cynthia. We give ourselves that authority. 

CW: Yay! 

SH: We do. So we are going to be talking about women's spirituality in our upcoming season. We had this planned before any of the recent brouhaha unfolded. 

CW: Yes.

SH: We knew that this is where we wanted to go this season. And so I just have a couple of things I want to say about that. First is, wherever your spirituality is taking you right now, go there. Go all the way there. 

CW: Yes. Yes. Yes. 

SH: That's one of the things that we both have come to believe. It's sort of like it tumbled out of Aubrey Chavez's mouth on a journey episode that we did with her last season and it has just stuck for both of us. 

CW: Yep, follow your spiritual energy. 

SH: And I feel like going deep. And that's what I think of with the well-digging metaphor.

It's like, what ground are you standing on and do you want to go deep in it? Going deep can be scary. And that's whether you've left the church or whether you're staying in it. Because as a woman, I feel like there's probably some damage in your spiritual life as a result of having spent it in a patriarchal organization like our church.

And so that makes it, you know, it's like you can feel a little burned and you're not sure that you want to dig anymore here. And so a lot of women come to the place where they think, should I just set all spiritual things aside? 

CW: Right. 

SH: Or should I not dig any deeper, should I just sort of shut myself off where I am?

Because our history or doctrines have already hurt. Already caused that damage. But I think that going deeper spiritually isn't about digging into things like history or doctrine. I think that well metaphor is more about our personal orientation to the ground that we're standing on rather than about the ground itself.

You know? It's like, what do you want from your religion? What, why are you doing it? What are you getting from it? What purpose is it serving in your life? And, so, I feel like what I want to help women do with Season 8 of At Last She Said It is to find the place where they want to stand and then start digging their personal six-foot well.

And I think no matter where you do that, no matter where you are, the well can yield the water that you're looking for. It's like he said, yeah, Islam for him. 

CW: Yeah. But I love that he said the sweet, the water would be just as sweet anywhere else or something like that. 

SH: Because he said we're all drawing from the same water, like the same underground water, no matter where we dig our well. I believe it. 

CW: I believe that too.