Episode 174 (Transcript): Exhibit A—Reactions to the Relief Society Broadcast
Episode Transcript
This episode can be found on any podcast app, or can be listened to here on Substack.
Many thanks to listener, Anne Law, for her work in transcribing this episode.
CW: Hi, I'm Cynthia Winward.
SH: And I'm Susan Hinckley. And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things. And the title of this week's, well, this month's episode, this week's bonus episode, the only one for this month actually, is Exhibit A, Reactions to the Relief Society Broadcast.
SH: Yeah, we're going to break our own cardinal rule here, Cynthia. And what's our rule?
CW: We're not a current events podcast.
SH: Correct. We do not talk about current events.
CW: So why are we today?
SH: Because it's a bonus, first of all. And secondly, because, I mean, if you have been anywhere near social media in the past 24 hours, it's pretty hard to look away from the train wreck that is the social media threads that have been going on.
And to me, I mean, I'm just going to start the conversation right here.
CW: Yay, jump in.
SH: To me, I have never felt so seen- in this church. Because I have never seen an outpouring of women saying it out loud in the ways, the specific ways, and direct ways that they are on these threads on Facebook and on Instagram.
CW: Right. And if people who are not on social media have no idea what we're talking about we will link to these social media posts we're talking about. But the church has made just for a little bit of background- on March 17th, the church had a celebration of the Relief Society birthday, the 182nd celebration.
SH: Right.
CW: Which is a really odd number to have. It's random.
SH: Except, is it random? Because I don't think it is.
CW: I don't know. You and I- are we being cynical thinking that this was a reaction?
SH: No, I don't think, no, I'll tell you why I don't think so, because, okay, for backing up for more context for women who may not have any idea, there was a called for walkout- right, a protest scheduled for yesterday.
CW: For church- not for the podcast.
SH: Yeah. No, not for the podcast. Yeah, so there was a church walkout scheduled and protested the women on the stand events that happened in the Bay Area and they were in announcing that they were specific in tying it to this Relief Society birthday. So they did that deliberately and so I don't think it's at all cynical to assume that the church also did this deliberately.
I mean, I would expect them to take a defensive position like that.
CW: I agree. And I tend to, I agree. I'll just say that. I agree. Part of me wonders though, because president Camille Johnson and her presidency are brand new as of like last August, September
SH: Right.
CW: That maybe this was they just as a new presidency wanted to do something big and wonderful- So maybe it’s that.
SH: Maybe. And if it's that, then I'm really really sorry that this coincided in this way, I guess maybe because I feel like It's hard to disconnect the two things.
CW: Right.
SH: So even if it's just coincidental, I'm sorry that it turned out this way. It's forever going to be sort of linked to this.
CW: Yeah. It is interesting, but I don't know. Did we finish- did we explain well enough to the women who aren't on social media what had been going on?
I don't know. But the church made a couple, the PR department obviously, made a couple of social media posts highlighting a few of the comments from the General Relief Society presidency, and that's where women were unleashed and in saying all the things about how they felt. Some of them felt gaslighted by some of the messages. Women felt like this was just so over the top false, some of the things that were said in these posts. So that's what we're here to talk about. Yeah that's why we decided to jump on our microphones, even though we're on break and just record a few haphazard, all over the place thoughts today.
SH: Yeah. I mean, really, that we, this is without preparation. This is the least scripted that you will ever hear, Susan and Cynthia.
CW: Yeah. You don't want to- after this, they're going to be like, stick to the script, ladies.
SH: Stick to the script.
CW: But how about- can I just say a few things that just- some talking points that I noticed from the broadcast things that I really liked and then, maybe a things that kind of went, ooh, a little ouchy.
I love that President Camille Johnson, she spoke two different times. She spoke at the very beginning, and then, of course, I wish she had spoken last- President Nelson had to, because you got to have a man speak last. But right before he finished the meeting, she spoke again. So I really loved that she took that opportunity to do that. And her counselors each spoke. And so. I really appreciated that.
SH: I'm going to interrupt you right now and say there's a thunderstorm going on here right now. Yeah. And the only other time we've had that was when we recorded the tithing episode. So just so everyone knows if I suddenly go dead, it's because I deserve to.
Anyway, please continue.
CW: I will continue [00:05:00] for what it's worth. I don't hear any thundering.
SH: Oh, that's good.
CW: Maybe it's all in your head, Susan.
SH: No. Well, I mean, okay. That could be another episode.
CW: It could be another one. Okay. Well, let's see- where was I about things that I really appreciated?
Oh I love Sister Yee- President Yee. I love that she's a single woman and I feel like she really set a good tone for speaking. I think they all did a good job of speaking to us as individual women, not as just mothers, which I feel like in the past, a lot of times, the messages kind of default to motherhood.
SH: Right.
CW: And I just think, okay, now that we know the statistic that more adults in the church are single than married, it just makes sense- it makes sense to me that president Johnson would call president Yee to be her counselor. And then they all made sure they spoke to us as individuals. So bravo, bravo, I was grateful for that. Side notes- should I even say what I was going to say about Nelson?
SH: It was, I mean, I mean, I don't know. It's complicated. Maybe this doesn't have to be a side note, Cynthia. Go ahead. Say what you're going to say.
CW: Okay.
SH: Let's talk about the way it's complicated.
CW: There are a couple of things that, oh, President Nelson that he talked about the two most influential women in his life and they've been his wives, his first wife and his second wife.
Now that wouldn't be so icky, except that we have this looming dark cloud over our head of eternal polygamy. And so it was really hard for me- I'm sure I'm not alone, to hear him praise both of his wives for having been the number one women in his life. And so maybe I'm just extra sensitive to that because polygamy always makes me wince, but I don't know.
I don't know how, I mean, he just could have handled it differently. He could have been sensitive to that fact that this is such a hot topic, but I don't know. That was just something that stood out to me.
SH: Well, you have to put it- okay, first of all, I'm not going to begrudge any men their second wives after their first wife dies.
CW: No.
SH: That's great. Be happy on this earth, gentlemen and women. Yes, get companionship. Do all those things. The problem here, or what makes it tricky is the context of polygamy, obviously. I hardly need to say that. But also, the context goes a little deeper than that because we do have- this is not the first time that he has talked about both his wives.
CW: Correct.
SH: And also included in those talks, sentiments like that he looks forward to spending eternity with both of them. Am I right in saying that?
CW: Well, thankfully he didn't say that this time.
SH: He didn't say that. No, no, no. What I'm saying is, if you take it in the context of everything that he has said, there have been sentiments expressed similar to that.
CW: Yes.
SH: If I'm remembering correctly.
CW: Well, and President Oaks.
SH: Maybe it's President Oaks. I could be conflating the two. Somebody at the top
CW: It doesn't matter, because our top two leaders.
SH: That idea has been expressed. So I feel like we're in a situation right now in the church where polygamy has already been uncomfortably dredged up in that way for some women.
So yes, you may be sensitive to it and rightfully so. It's a sensitive time around that topic. So it's charged anytime they're going to- they're going to do that. That's going to be a little charged. So some more sensitivity to that might be good, but also I'm sure he loves his wives. Okay.
I, yeah, yeah. That's great. I'm glad that he's been well taken care of by great women.
CW: “Well taken care of.”
SH: Well, that's what he said. He said she took care of me better than anyone else could.
CW: I know. I could just say more things about that. But I won't.
SH: Cynthia, we all could.
CW: Thank you.
SH: Cut that whole section out. Onward.
CW: The last thing I want to say, and I'm glad you and I are already chuckling because I, at this point, I'm just chuckling at things like this. When President Nelson said, Heavenly Father and Jesus sent us to this earth dot, dot, dot- and I'm just like, okay, I am convinced once and for all, for now and forever that President Nelson will never say heavenly parents, let alone heavenly mother, because I was just hanging on it when he said Heavenly Father and I thought- Oh, he's going to say Heavenly Mother. No, Heavenly Father and Jesus. So I'm like, okay, two men took part in all the creation. So, uhh
SH: Well, I mean, this is the prophet who has presided over the style change of Heavenly Parents never being capitalized.
Oh, that's right.
CW: So it's not allowed to be capitalized.
SH: It's not allowed to be capitalized. So, I mean, I think that you're right. I think that's never going to be, he's never going to be comfortable expressing it that way.
CW: Expressing that Heavenly Parents sent us to earth.
SH: Yep. I think that's going to be his way.
CW: Wow. So that's how low the bar is? We can't even say Heavenly Parents sent us to this earth.
SH: We can, but the prophet's not going to stand up and say that at the microphone.
CW: Well, yeah.
SH: I don't think that's going to be, I don't think he is going to. I think you're right.
CW: Okay.
SH: I don't think he's going to.
CW: Well, anyway, it just makes me chuckle because I'm like, okay, maybe I'll cut this out, but I'm like, okay, I don't want to hear any more [00:10:00] garbage about gay marriages then, because two men can do all of creation.
SH: Well, Cynthia, I think three men did all of creation in the temple. I think we already know that. Didn't you watch the movie?
CW: This is terrible. We really should be on script and not just talking.
SH: You're right. This is why we script our shows, folks.
CW: How many Diet Cokes have you had today, Susan?
SH: And I'm going to need another one.
CW: I just drank a big Coke Zero. So I'm a little buzzed. So let's move on
This is something we've talked a lot before about on the podcast, about us versus them. And there were two points made during this that kind of made me go, really- I don't even think we realize it at this point at the us versus them- like president Johnson, she said, “No worldly organization can articulate a comparable divinely appointed platform to that of the Relief Society.”
SH: You may notice in the notes that I said, I'm not even totally sure what that phrase means.
CW: Well, I'm not really sure what it means either.
SH: Because I looked up articulate and I can't figure out, I mean that- articulate means express in words.
CW: Uh huh.
SH: So I don't, I'm not totally sure what she's saying.
I think she's saying Relief Society is the greatest and no other church has anything, or no other organization in the world has anything like it.
CW: Right, I think that's exactly what she's saying. But I mean, I can think of anyway, I can think of a lot of organizations that do a lot of good for women, by women maybe to the numbers that we have.
Well, I don't know. I bet there are more nuns, Catholic nuns in this world than, that, maybe not more than Relief Society. Okay. Cut this all out.
SH: No, I, okay. I don't know, but here's where, here's the sticky point- is that she says, and these are her words, “divinely appointed platform”. And so the thing is, you can't make any argument against that when the Latter day Saints believe that we're the only divinely appointed church, there's really no argument to be made. Of course we have the biggest divinely appointed organization for women because we're the only one that we believe is divinely appointed. Does that make sense?
CW: Yeah, no, that makes sense. And I think later on in our notes, like we have like a sticky note pad here worth of notes is about all we've written down. You say something later on about- why do we have to be the bestest? So maybe more on that in a minute, but yeah. And then sister Annette Dennis, when she said, “there is no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has so broadly given power and authority to women. There are religions that ordain some women, but very few relative to the number of women in their congregations receive that authority that their church gives them.”
Now, we have a lot to say about that in a second about priesthood power and the P word, but just for a minute there, it really made me sad that, especially in a worldwide church, especially when everything can be a headline in five minutes, that we would ever choose to compare ourselves to another church and say, Oh, we're better.
We're the bestest. We do the best for women- unlike other churches. Yeah, other churches might ordain, but all the women don't get as much power as those few women that are in church- we give power to all of our women. And I just, again, is it just me? It looks again like us versus them and aren't we amazing and everybody else sucks.
And I don't like feeling that way about the own women in my church that I love.
SH: But I think a lot of church members do like feeling that way. I'm sorry to say.
CW: Well, if they do, maybe-
SH: I think they do like feeling that we're somehow above all other churches.
CW: Then we need to ask ourselves why.
If we're gonna do a little bit of shadow work here, then I think we need to look inside and be like, why do you have to feel-
SH: Why do we wanna feel this way? Why superior to all other churches? .
CW: Yeah. What does that do for you to feel like you're better than others, or that you have more power than others, or that you are lucky enough to belong to a better organization than others, like however we wanna phrase it.
SH: Am I wrong thinking about it that way though? Have you experienced that?
CW: What, that I have felt better?
SH: No, that many Latter-day Saints seem to like thinking that our church is better than every other church.
CW: No, we're not. No, Susan, I can even remember- I, like a month ago, I texted you furiously after Relief Society because we had a lesson on the Abrahamic Covenant and I texted you and I was like, so this lesson basically felt like us saying, yay, we're special- we are part of the Abrahamic Covenant and nobody else is. We are the best. Rah, rah, rah.
So I don't know, that's just something I feel like once you see it, you can't unsee it.
SH: I think so.
CW: And for me, that's something I've seen in the last few years. I was like, oh, we need to be the best- [00:15:00] and in our defense of our own members and maybe ways I used to think, when you belong to the “one and only true church on the face of planet earth”
SH: You're the best.
CW: Yeah. Just how could that not just be a sequential feeling? Therefore, I am the best.
SH: Of course, members feel that way.
CW: And yet back in the day when I felt like I was the best, but would never say it out loud, I would think of the scripture where it says, through the Abrahamic covenant, all nations of the earth will be blessed.
So it wasn't that we were the best, we were just the most blessed- and it was through us that everyone else would be blessed and therefore the best. I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, I just basically, I want to feel good about my church because I want to feel good about my church, not because we take down other churches.
So I want the us versus them to stop.
SH: I'm sure she would be mortified if she thought that we took it that way.
CW: I'm sure she would too. I'm sure Sister Dennis would. And so, I hope that we're speaking to this more broadly.
SH: Yeah.
CW: It definitely was that line in her talk that prompted us to have this whole discussion for the last few minutes.
SH: Right. Right. Because I think that most members, when they say things that make us seem like we're putting ourselves above every other church, I don't know that they specifically have reasoned out how that sounds. Like sometimes we say things that we don't really, do you really, did you listen to yourself right there?
Do you know how that sounds? I think sometimes we're maybe not aware of, that it comes off that way. I mean, I want to believe that.
CW: I want to believe that too.
SH: I'm sure I come off wrong all the time, Cynthia.
CW: Well, exactly.
SH: That much I know about myself.
CW: No, I can always give grace to people who misspeak in front of a microphone.
SH: Right.
CW: Like you and I do. But, for that to be turned into a social media post by the public relations department shows very-
SH: Yeah, now we're getting to it.
CW: Well, and I just want to read one comment that kind of goes along with what you and I have been saying that I saw on the church's social media.
This woman said, “Some of my evangelical Christian women friends are taught they have power directly from God with no middle man. They lay their hands on those in need and pray for them. In their congregations, they lead youth groups alongside the men, run classes on marriage alongside their spouse, create Bible study groups, and help organize missionary trips, and much more. They are confident in their divine purpose, whether single or as partners in their marriages, and parents to their children, friends, and community.”
SH: Okay, here's the, okay, sorry, go ahead.
CW: No, I was just going to say that you sent me that comment this morning.
SH: Yeah.
CW: And what was it about that stuck out? Why would you send that one to me? Go ahead-
SH: Okay, the reason that I sent that one to you- I want to give one more bit of context before I explain why I sent that one to you.
CW: Okay.
SH: Can you tell our listeners what you had posted?
CW: Oh, yeah-
SH: Because you posted a response to this right?
CW: I’ve got to pull it up because we didn't even put my own response in the note.
I said, is this a joke? Episcopalians have women priests, Lutherans have women pastors, Judaism has women rabbis.
SH: Right. Which is true, but of course you opened yourself up, you totally opened yourself up to the argument that, yeah, but we're talking about the priesthood, we're talking about priesthood power, right?
CW: Right.
SH: And so as soon as you can twist it into being, yeah, but we're talking about priesthood power, it gets even- that phrase gets even more useless when we start applying it to women in our church, in my opinion, because then when we're talking about these personal spiritual experiences they've had or these like personal ways they're exercising their priesthood power as a primary teacher or, whatever- which is in no way, you can't even have a conversation about that versus being a rabbi. I mean, those are just two totally different things. And so the thing that I loved about this comment that you just read is that it did take it down to a little bit more personal level. These evangelical women that this person is talking about, she was talking about their confident in their divine purpose, no matter what they're doing, and they're doing all these different things.
Not that they're all ordained- not that they're all the pastor or leader of the congregation, but they are operating from the kind of personal spiritual power that the people who are trying to draw this, I mean I have to call it a false equivalence really, between the kind of power and authority that Latter-day Saint women have versus, a rabbi or an ordained priest in another denomination.
CW: Yeah. I'm really glad you sent that to me though, because I've been chewing on it all day, just thinking, again, I don't think it was intended to say, we give our women more responsibility than other churches, and that's a good thing. And through that, they have priesthood power as they fulfill whatever- teaching primary, young women's, planning the ward activity. And so I just [00:20:00] loved that so many women, including myself, I mean, my comment was specifically about ordination, right?
SH: Right.
CW: But I love that so many women jumped in and they were like- I have a lot of friends and they do amazing things in their churches and they don't distinguish between kind of like what you were saying- between, well, you and I don't distinguish, I think, between like priesthood power and just using God's power.
I think there are plenty, most maybe, people in our church that do think there is a difference between operating as a Latter-day Saint in a calling under priesthood power versus just God's power. And that's maybe- let's just jump into that, because I know we're going to talk a little bit about priesthood power, and this is where we probably need like eight pages of notes, because
SH: Yeah, we do.
CW: Even then we wouldn't understand the topic, go ahead Susan.
SH: Because, okay, how can you understand a topic that is meaningless, that no one has ever defined it for us or given us anything that actually gives us those words priesthood power and priesthood authority? Yeah. And we've said this before on the podcast that they've started throwing those words around a lot now and it's really hard to understand what the heck they're talking about when they're saying it.
And I found that to be problematic on social media in this specific discussion because members were talking past each other because they weren't even talking about the same thing. They're not even talking about the same thing. But when you hand out these phrases like priesthood power and priesthood authority without specifically defining them in any way, without tying them to any kind of specific responsibilities or authorities then it's pretty hard to have a meaningful conversation.
It was a little like some women were saying to other women, well, if you've experienced it- wink, wink, you know- right? I've felt this power in my life, and if you feel it in your life, you'll know if you do all the right things, you'll have it too. And I just kept thinking, yeah, but what are you talking about? Because I've had all kinds of spiritual experiences in my life also, but I'm not sure I would ever have known to call them priesthood authority- because I've never had any kind of organizational authority in this church. Which, and when I think about priesthood, of course I think about organizational roles in our church,
CW: Because that's how it was like the first 50 years of your life.
SH: That's what it's always been. Of course.
CW: And then we changed it.
SH: And then we changed it without really telling anyone what the change means. What does this change mean? And so that's where it gets tricky. So the meme that caused all the problems on social media was the first part of that quote that you read from Sister Dennis, which was, “there is no other religious organization in the world that I know of that has so broadly given power and authority to women.”
Well, just on the surface, looking at that- that's ludicrous. Just like you said, there are all these other churches ordaining women, doing all these things. So to me, the biggest problem with that, and the thing I just can't believe that the social media person who chose it didn't think of, is that little snippet from her talk introduces the idea of organizational power and authority, right in the first few words.
She's talking about religious organizations giving power to women. And that would be like organizational power and authority- which we just know that women do not have in our church.
CW: Nope.
SH: So that was just demonstrably false, right from the get go. But I think actually she was meaning to suggest- and I'm using air quotes here, “priesthood authority”.
CW: Right.
SH: Which now they're talking about us having all the time and we're not really sure- what does that mean? But as near as I can tell, it's supposed to mean some kind of personal authority, except for the women in the temple who very specifically do hold the priesthood in their callings.
CW: In that one specific ordinance.
SH: That's one specific ordinance- right. Except for that, I think the rest of us don't really have a clear definition of what that means. But I think we can all agree that women have no institutional authority. There's not even really an argument you can make there, is there?
CW: Well, once again, I think we were talking past each other on social media about this because that's what I was trying to say when I said no, there are rabbis and pastors and priests that are women in other denominations. I was speaking organizationally- they are in charge and making decisions.
SH: Right.
CW: Whereas I think the other people were like, yeah, but do they have priesthood? Like, and I'm like, what do you mean- do they have a magic feather?
SH: And that's exactly what it feels like.
CW: Is this like Dumbo here? Like, if you think you can- you can!? I mean, this is, oh gosh, this is cynical, Cynthia.
SH: But yes, that's exactly what it felt like.
And I feel like that's because, I feel like our leaders have set us up for this kind of talking past each other because they're talking about something that's completely immeasurable and it's, in fact- it's ineffable, right? You can't even really describe it. This kind of power they're talking about is something you can't even really describe, can you?
So we're just going to be talking about two totally different things, and it does not matter how many times a prophet says to me, you have priesthood power and authority- if I [00:25:00] don't know what they're talking about, the only thing I know to connect it to is organizational power and authority, which I ain't got.
CW: Right. Yeah, you're right. That was a huge problem in all the millions of comments we've seen is there was a lot of talking past each other for that very reason. Cause we're talking about two different things and me and my, Mormony progressiveness- I just go by the generic definition- I don't even know how old this is on LDS.org, but it says “the priesthood is the authority and power of God.”
SH: Okay. That's how I've always heard the definition.
CW: And it doesn't say only members of our church can have the power of God.
SH: Okay.
CW: But I can almost guarantee you that like LDS doctrine would say that only LDS men, and now we've added women in, have priesthood power- like you have to make covenants to have that power of God in your life.
SH: Covenants is the magic word because what did you tell me that they mentioned the word covenants like 49 times in the 30 minutes or something?
CW: Yeah, yeah!
SH: It stood out to me- I just kept saying they just keep talking about covenants and covenant relationship.
So that was really interesting to me. But several people in their talks drew this correlation that if you've been endowed, then you have priesthood power.
CW: Which, I just need someone to define how is that different than from the definition I just read- which is like power of God, priesthood is authority and power of God. So I'm-
SH: Well, then why do men need to be ordained?
CW: So they can be in charge of everything.
SH: Yeah, right. If everyone who is endowed has this priesthood power and authority- Then why do men need to be ordained to have organizational power? That's the only difference that I can see is that it gives them some kind of organizational power.
Maybe we need a new word.
CW: That would be nice, but instead I feel like cynical Cynthia says, as the world moves towards more equality for women and the church doesn't, the church is just going to redefine what certain words mean or add words on to those- like instead of just saying priesthood, we now say priesthood power.
SH: Priesthood power and priesthood authority.
CW: And priesthood authority.
SH: Right.
CW: And you all have that if you've made covenants in the temple or I don't know- It just gets so muddy. But that's what- in my, I'm going to quit saying cynical Cynthia because I don't think I'm just being cynical, I really think as I've thought about this for years and years, quite actually more than a decade now, that this is just the church trying to assuage the pain of women.
SH: Yes.
CW: And for many, it works for many women. They're like, Oh yeah, I have priesthood power too. And for many of us, you and me we see through it. We kind of- is it the emperor's new clothes, Susan? Like everyone says they see it- and then some of us are like, I'm not seeing it. This isn't reality here.
Anyway, I'll put cynical Cynthia in the corner and we'll try to move on and try to carry on with this conversation. But I, since I've decided as a progressive Latter-day Saint, that to me, priesthood is simply the authority and power of God. And I see that extending well outside the bounds of our religion.
I left a subsequent comment when people were saying, yeah, but do those women have priesthood power? And I'm like, well, I don't think I'm comfortable saying to someone like, say, Rabbi Sharon Brouse, who is a rabbi in the Los Angeles area- I just finished reading her book, the Amen Effect- I highly recommend it.
And so I've been thinking a lot about her and all the change that she's having in this, not just in her neighborhood, but around the world. As a woman of God, as someone who has the power of God. And so I said in my comment, I'm not comfortable saying that someone like Rabbi Sharon Browse, that she doesn't have God's power.
Also LDS folks are less than one 10th of 1 percent of planet earth. I simply can't believe that God has chosen to limit his power to a tiny handful. Like, that's just my math, looking at it going, wow, God's really inefficient then. And I refuse to believe that God is inefficient but worse than inefficient, doesn't love all his children equally. That any of us who want to come unto him- are given his power. Is that too- am I being a simpleton looking at it that way?
SH: No, I don't think that you are. I'll tell you why I- you heard silence there for a second because I was just thinking, how do I say this? And what I want to say is that I believe many church members actually do believe that God has only chosen one 10th of 1 percent on the planet.
CW: Okay.
SH: And I, there's nothing I can do about that.
CW: No.
SH: If a lot of members believe that and I don't believe it, [00:30:00] then we just have a disagreement.
CW: Yeah. Yeah. We're just gonna have to agree to disagree on that.
SH: Right. Right.
CW: That hurts my heart to think that 99. 999 percent of the planet is wandering aimlessly without the power of God in their life.
SH: Right.
CW: I can't go there.
SH: Well, I also can't go to a place where we get to decree that we have God's power, but other religious people are not allowed to decree that they also feel that they have God's power. I mean- I'm not sure like what makes our claim more valid.
CW: That is such a good point.
We hate it as Latter-day Saints when people tell us we're not Christians.
SH: Yes.
CW: And yet we're doing exactly the same thing when we say- oh, you don't have God's power,
SH: Right.
CW: We do. Like we know how it feels to be picked on. How dare we pick on other people.
SH: Right.
CW: At least in our own talks and in our own meetings.I don't think we're going throughout the world, like, literally saying that to people- but when we say it to our own members in our own meetings, that is what we're saying.
SH: Yeah. I mean, so I guess it all comes down to your personal beliefs about truth claims and exclusivity claims.
CW: Uh huh.
SH: By our church- I mean, either you believe those or you don't believe them. And I think they're, by far the majority of members probably do believe them.
CW: Mm hmm.
SH: Or haven't really engaged that line of questioning seriously. I don't know.
All I know is that for me, that doesn't really work anymore, that we have some kind of specialized access to God's power.
CW: That makes me sad that even knowing what we know- even if people don't have proximity in their everyday lives to people of other faiths and can see how they're using God's power in their own life- I mean, we've at least all heard of like Mother Teresa and Desmond Tutu and Martin Luther King, who was also, an ordained reverend. Like, I just think all you have to do is zoom out for about three seconds and then you can go- oh, these people have changed the planet.
SH: Right. I totally agree. And I mean surely this is a whole other episode, but I know it's very much in parallel with the way many members think about the Holy Ghost- like we have some kind of special corner on access to the spirit.
CW: That's exactly right
SH: So it's just the same kind of thing- and either that is a resonant message for you, or it is not.
CW: Yes.
SH: But I think that a lot of this conversation presupposes that it is a resonant message for you- and if it's not, then members end up talking past each other again. Because for you to say, they're ordained women in all these other religions- a lot of other members would just say, yeah, but their ordination means nothing because they don't have the priesthood, right? So that's meaningless.
CW: We have the real power, they have the magic feather.
SH: Exactly. That's exactly right.
CW: Alright, where else, Susan? What other things did you notice browsing social media?
SH: I mean, I want to zoom out on the whole conversation a little bit because first, we thought, well, let's break down some of these comments, right? And we were screenshotting comments, sending them to each other, everything. Because I mean, it's been fun to watch in the way a train wreck is something that it's human nature to want to watch sometimes.
I mean, there has been that aspect of it- and I'm so glad it happened because that social media post just on its surface was so obviously and completely ill conceived, in my opinion- in fact, next time we hire someone to help us with social media, guess who we're not hiring? Whoever did that one- I'm very sorry for everyone involved at this point. It's not fun when things blow up online.
CW: Can I insert really quickly here? I'm not even sure the post wasn't edited because I made my comment and then all of a sudden poof, it was like-
SH: Yeah, there was all of the context added.
CW: Yeah, all the context was added and then I was like-
SH: Agreed. I think it was edited.
CW: Oh, okay.
SH: It didn't get better, by the way.
CW: No, it didn't get better, but you're not the first person that texted me and they were like, oh, it's different now, but I can't really prove that.
Anyway, go on.
SH: No, I woke up to it being different than I went to bed.
CW: Okay.
SH: So that's that's true- at least as my social media showed it to me- it showed it differently this morning. But I'm so happy it happened because whoever is keeping their eye on the church's social media accounts, they saw this outpouring- a lot of women showed up to vent, and so as I kept scrolling through reading all these comments eventually, I thought, I can't really even pick any specific ones out to talk about because it's really just the same sort of pattern over and over and over again.
So I just wanted to talk more generally [00:35:00] about the pattern of what happened, if that's okay- and I mean, I will use their, use some examples, but so for anyone who missed it, I feel like this was those threads in a nutshell. So I'm going to start with one comment that said- “In the spirit of President Nelson's plea to the sisters, we need your voices, please hear the women in the comments voices. This is simply not true, nor is it working to tell us this anymore. It is disrespectful and belittling. It's misleading and harmful. We need actions, not words.”
So someone lays down something like that. And then immediately that comment gets corrected by more faithful members and also lecturing men- something, some variation of whatever thought is weeding its way to the minds of some sisters in the church that women have no voice is one of satanic origins- it is false, quote unquote, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
CW: Everyone pull out your bingo card and where it says Satan on it, put a little pinto bean on it.
SH: Because I kept seeing Satan coming up again and again. And that started happening for me yesterday. And then it was interesting because today when more context was added, Sister Dennis actually went there.
CW: Yeah.
SH: In her talk- so, those seeds in this discussion were planted, right in the origin material. So that was interesting. There were also a lot of- this isn't a democracy, this isn't people's church- this is God's church- I mean, there were all of the kind of arguments that you would expect, right? So it went that way.
CW: Yeah. Can I go back for a second to talk about that? The person that made that- this is no voice, this is a voice of satanic origins or something, blah, blah, blah because yeah, Sister Dennis said- in saying, that when basically- when women are unhappy with what they've been given, which first of all, at least she acknowledged that there are, or excuse me, when she said
women are focusing on what they have not been given.
SH: Right.
CW: At least she acknowledged that there is something we have not as women been given. So I'm glad that she recognizes that there is a lack and that women know it. And that's what all these comments- that's why my own comment is at around 3,000 likes now. I think you said in the very beginning, did you say you- you never felt, you don't feel alone or you never vindicated
SH: Yeah, I feel so seen.
Have you ever had 3, 000 likes on a comment before?
CW: No! No.
SH: Yeah. It's interesting.
CW: Yeah. So I think that's really interesting- well, and that always gets my hackles up when people say, oh, well, if you want this, that's Satan- sister Dennis didn't say Satan, she says the adversary, but that's our new word for Satan or whatever.
And I just think, I am sick to death of being told that if I want something different, then that's coming from Satan.
SH: Right.
CW: Like maybe- maybe I, a person who has like spent my entire life in this church and has had all the callings, spoiler, it was honestly while I was serving in some of those quote unquote big callings- where I realized that women are under the subjugation of men.
It was serving in those callings that I saw what we had not been given, as Sister Dennis puts it. So was Satan there in those meetings? Between me and my presidency and men leaders in the church building? Because that's where I first noticed it. Or how about being in the temple? Was Satan there in the temple then- influencing me to realize, oh, I have less than men- because these covenants that I'm making are unequal.
Unequal, unequal, like they're not equal to what the men are making. They're covenanting directly with God- I was covenanting directly through my husband that- felt icky to me. So if we're going to sit there and blame Satan for all of this, then those are the questions that kind of come to my mind is, well, where exactly is Satan in all this?
Cause it was sitting in church meetings and in the temple that my heart broke into a million pieces when I realized- we have no authority.
SH: I mean, I guess that people would say, well, that's just Satan working on your mind and heart, so you're focusing on the wrong things- to which I would say when I've been doing the right things, why would Satan have so much influence in my life?
CW: Yeah. You've said that before and it's kind of mind blowing.
SH: It just doesn't make sense to me. Why? I just can't blame it all on Satan because I can't figure out why he would have so much influence over me, if any- anyway, it's all another example of the way that we tell people if you have a problem with something in church, then it's your fault.
CW: It's your fault.
SH: It's just another version of that same thing. [00:40:00]
CW: And that makes me sad that we can't sit with just different opinions in the room- let alone, don't even, you don't even have to sit with the hurt and the pain of women- can't we just step back and say, hmm, never thought of it that way.
SH: No.
CW: I don't agree, but I never thought of it that way.
SH: No, we can't. We refuse to not correct each other when we perceive that Satan may be getting a toehold in the conversation-I don't know. But so, that brings me to the next thing, so what happens next in these conversations is we have a comment that says, “I'm disappointed that we choose to not listen to so many voices who don't feel this.”
Right? So you have the people who are genuinely hurt because they can't get other members to hear the pain that they're expressing, which gets shut down again immediately by something along the lines of- the only voice we're supposed to listen to is the spirit and the prophet- the church is not a democracy.
CW: There's another one, I'm, the church is not a democracy, oh gosh.
SH: So that's sort of the pattern and just like repeat that pattern over and over and over,
CW: Wash, rinse, repeat.
SH: across 6,000 comments across the different platforms. I don't even know how many, but as I watched it go, I just thought, okay, this is just a pattern.I see what's going on here.
CW: Yeah. Yeah. Nothing new here to see.
SH: Nothing new here to see. My personal favorite comment, I think that I read in all of it said, “How to shut down dissenting conversation in the church- One, tell the person they don't actually understand the doctrine. How many times did I see that going on?
Two, explain how their thoughts and pain are a result of being influenced by Satan or the world.
CW: Like we just said.
SH: Three, insinuate that they are actually the problem because they don't pray enough or pray about the right thing or read their scriptures enough or have enough faith or have enough humility. Fill in the blank- don't do enough, whatever.
Four, bear testimony. And five, end with a dose of fear, right? Remind them of what is at stake if they don't start seeing things from your perspective. It just plays out again and again and
CW: She nailed it in those five points right there.
SH: Yes, totally. Yeah, totally nailed it. I know, I wish it weren't so true.
So I guess in summary- my takeaway from the whole social media response, can I just give you my, like, very brief summary?
CW: Yes.
SH: I'll just say, number one, we are crap at mourning and comforting. Seriously.
CW: I'm sorry. I'm going to edit out my laughing.
SH: Okay, well you could edit out me saying crap, but I'm going to say it again. We are crap at that, Cynthia. A whole lot of our church members ain't got any time for mourning or comforting or bearing one another's burdens. I can draw no other conclusion than that by the fact that people stand up to push back when people share their personal pain over something. I just don't even know what to make of that.
Two, we are still very invested in making the problems the fault of the person having them. That is a part of our foundational approach. Three, we are also heavily invested in assuring everyone that we are the bestest church. Because I also just saw that again and again and again- and it's so ugly and unhelpfu,l in my opinion.
CW: Do you remember one of the comments you sent me when someone said, LDS women are the strongest in the human race?
SH: Yes.
CW: If that isn't the best- that's the bestest ever. We're the best of the human race. Rock on. Fist bump, Susan. You and me.
SH: Exactly. I mean, I'm sorry to laugh- I'm sure that is meaningful to her, but I personally don't even know what to do with that. I think it's really funny. I
CW: I know what you do with that. You send it to Cynthia and then you put like, exploding head emoji with it. What!? Huh!?
SH: I think once we retire from this podcast, we'll just start publishing posthumously our text threads that have been going on for years and years.
CW: Oh gosh.
SH: Oh gosh. Okay, number four, Cynthia. Meanwhile, many of our women are actually not okay. Despite all appearances.
CW: And we know that because of 3,000 likes on my one pithy comment.
SH: That's right.
Number five, the reason that this institution keeps telling us that we have so much power is because we don't and the leaders know this, duh, of course they do, and they know we are upset about it. And if they didn't know, they know after this text debacle- or no, sorry, the social media debacle that has unfolded.
CW: Mm hmm.
SH: They know it now.
CW: Well, and what's that line from Hamlet, Me thinks thou doth protest too much?
SH: I mean, really.
CW: If you have to tell us over and over and over we're equal, psst, hint. We're not [00:45:00] equal.
SH: Right.
CW: And I'm so glad that I saw plenty of comments too, from I think I remember, seeing one from a woman who said, I wonder how many, how often men have talks-
SH: Well, yeah.
CW: where they're told they're equal.
SH: How special they are.
CW: Yeah, it's like, no, we already know they're the best- we don't have to give them those talks.
SH: Oh, I just think that's so funny.
CW: I know.
SH: Oh, it's the old flip the switch. It's pretty funny.
CW: Oh, it's our favorite thing to do.
SH: It's our favorite thing.
CW: Just flip it.
SH: Yep. Okay, so number six brings me to number six, which is this bizarre switch that we're experiencing right now to talking about nebulous priesthood power and priesthood authority using gigantic air quotes, which are personal power for women.
We exercise these things personally, right? Or under- when we're exercising it in a calling, it's under the authority of a man, right? But without any clear definition or clarification of what that even means, it's pure deflection. That's what's going on with that. And if I were a swearing person, I would repeat what you said on our text conversation yesterday. That it all starts to sound like a bunch of beep.
CW: Horse beep is what it sounds like.
SH: Well, I mean, you're not wrong- after a while when mumbo jumbo words that you don't- who knows what they mean, it does start to sound like that.
Which brings me to number seven, which is that our current leadership has no interest in substantive change in this area because number eight, when you're aware of a problem and you take no steps to resolve it, then that looks exactly the same as not caring.
CW: How many times have you said that?
SH: Well, it's still true for me. It's still true for me.
CW: Well, and similar to that, we, I saw one comment on social media that said we hear this so often- we're trying to convince women they're equals that it's made me realize how very aware leadership is of this issue.
I don't think talks addressed to men- oh, this is what I just was referring to a minute ago- “I don't think talks addressed to men spend nearly as much time dedicated to talking about how valuable and important men are. Everyone already knows.”
SH: Mm. Truth.
CW: So that is really hard and I'm still sitting with that one and with your number seven- that, current leadership has no interest in substantive change in this area.
I don't want- I really don't want to believe that's true. I would- I'd rather believe that they don't know what to do- no I'm going to take that back, because they do know what to do- they could do it. They can make a million substantive changes by Sunday, and we've said that a million times on the podcast.
SH: Well the irony, here's the thing, I'm sitting with this enormous irony as I look at this. If the dots are in any way connected between the women on the stand thing and this devotional, I guess is what it was called, if they're in any way connected, then the irony of responding to something like the women being removed from the stand, the irony of responding to that by standing up and reassuring everyone women have so much power and authority in this organization is mind blowingly huge.
That is too much irony for me to even believe. And so someone made that editorial decision. Now maybe they're completely disconnected and there's no connection there at all, like you said. Still, the irony of them occurring on the same day is pretty huge. That is some big irony, Cynthia.
CW: Well, I wouldn't think it was ironic if it were like the 175th anniversary.
SH: No, I would still think it's ironic that the protest was because women had been removed from the stand- it was over visual depiction of any kind of authority.
CW: I see what you are saying.
SH: We're talking about visual power and authority in any way- that got totally shut down. And so the institutional response that happens to fall on the same day even if it was, the 150th jubilee or whatever, what happens to fall on the same day is this message that women do have power and authority.
CW: Forever I have said that I really am fine if women are happy where they are. Just be aware that there are other feelings in the room.
SH: Right.
CW: Okay, I still feel that, but also here's my thought experiment I've been saying lately, and I haven't really said this out loud to anyone, but I would want to ask the women who are happy with the status quo, but should you be?
Should you be?
SH: Well, yeah, and even beyond that, should your granddaughters be?
CW: There you go.
SH: Should your granddaughters be happy with, like, is that really your expectation and your desire for them?
CW: Yeah, our policies aren't aging well.
SH: No.
CW: In the 2020s.
SH: We're watching them not age well in like at warp speed in real time.
Thanks for breaking it down with me, friend.
CW: Thanks for breaking it down with me, and it's been great to be back on mike with you, Susan, and we will officially be back for season [00:50:00] eight on what's the date? I already forgot.
SH: April 16th.
CW: April 16th. Mark your calendars. We'll be back here with more coherent episodes where it's not just Susan and Cynthia rambling.
SH: Yeah. Have no fear, friends- we've already written eight pages of notes for that episode.
CW: Have a good afternoon, Susan. You too.
SH: For more info about our episodes, check out atLastSheSaidit.org, where you can also register for events, leave us a voice message, get merchandise, or support us with a tax deductible donation.
This project is supported by listeners like you. We hope you'll join the conversation on social media and at atLastSheSaidit.substack.com. Thanks for listening.
Bloopers
CW: And the title of this week's episode is -well, this month's episode, this week's bonus episode, the only one for this month actually is- I forgot. Okay, sorry, let me do that again.
SH: I'm gonna write it down. I'm typing it in.
CW: Okay. Oh my gosh. Cynthia.
I'll cut this out. Should we say when we're coming back? Yeah, say when we're coming back. I have to know though. I don't, let me look at,
SH: it's the 16th, I think.
CW: Is it?
SH: Mm hmm. Let me check my calendar and make sure that’s true.