Episode 173 (Transcript): An Open Letter to the Church | The Imagination Episode
Episode Transcript
Many thanks to listener, Kathryn Lee, for her help in transcribing this episode!
You can listen to this episode on any podcast app or here on the website.
CW: Hello, I am Cynthia Winward.
SH: And I'm Susan Hinckley.
CW: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things. And the title of today's episode is An Open Letter to the Church.
SH: What makes us think we get to send an open letter to the church, Cynthia?
CW: I don't know. This has been my dilemma as we've been planning for this episode. As I was like, wow, Cynthia, you really have an ego now. You think that you actually get to tell the big people in charge what you really think? I don't know. It's feeling a little nerve wracking to me. So I hope it goes okay today, Susan.
SH: I agree – I agree on all of those counts but something you just said there gives me an opening for where I want to start this because I want to clarify that when we say an open letter to the church, I mean both to the organization and to its members.
CW: Okay.
SH: Because I'm not just railing on the organization, I'm sort of railing on the whole thing.
CW:Well, now I have an issue with what you just said, railing.
SH: It's just like-
CW: We're not railing, are we?
SH: Okay, I don't know. When you send an open letter to, you know, someone, it sort of feels like you're going to call them out a little bit, doesn't it?
CW: For sure. No, it does. It does.
SH: So, okay. Well, we don't mean to be calling anybody out. But the, when I, the reason I – okay. Maybe I just shouldn't have used the word railing. Let me back up and start again.
CW: I’m just poking at you. Go for it.
SH: Sending this letter; Anytime that I'm saying “the church,” that's such a big catch all that, yeah, sometimes I mean the leader, sometimes I'm criticizing the organization, sometimes it's the people around me or the culture, right- that we've created, because I feel like, particularly in our church – and I can't say for other churches 'cause I haven't ever been a member of one – it's all so tangled up.
CW: For sure.
SH: Like the culture, the members, the organization, the way it functions, all of it is this big tangled mass of things.
CW: Yeah. Where does one end and one begin?
SH: Right. So for the purposes of today's discussion, I'm just gonna say “the church” and you know, apply that however it makes sense to you based on what I'm saying.
CW: Yeah.
SH: Does that work?
CW: Yeah, that works. I also think, too, even though we're calling this an open letter to the church, it's not in letter form.
It's kind of like, Susan, if you and I were really going to write an open letter to the church, these are the topics that we would include. So that's where we're going today, I think.
SH: Yeah, that's it. Exactly. Because once you've had enough conversations in this space and around enough kinds of things, then you find that the same things come up over and over again, right?
I mean, that happens for us all the time. We're saying how many times have we talked about fill-in-the-blank. So this is a case of we've had all these things come up over and over enough that we want to organize them into a summary of sorts.
CW: Yeah.
SH: And we're just going to do that today and call it an open letter to the church.
CW: I like that because I was thinking as we've had these repeat conversations with our listeners, with each other- I was going to say I feel like banging my head against the wall. So I like the way you put it instead. So go for it.
SH: Okay. So let's start over. The title of today's episode is Banging Our Heads Against the Wall.
CW: There, she said it at last.
SH: Okay, I'm going to start us off. And here's where I'm going to begin: I feel like we have work to do as a church. And the need is real. And I was thinking about a conversation that I had with a pair of sister missionaries when I took them out for pizza, and this was a few years ago.
It was in the months right before COVID, so before our podcast had started. But you and I were acquainted, of course- we were friends then, and we were both working as moderators in an online support group, right, in a Facebook group, Waters of Mormon. And. [00:05:00] So I was telling them about that.
Well, first of all, they had challenged me to do something involving missionary work. I don't remember what the specific challenge was, but you know how that's their job.
CW: Of course they did! That’s their job!
SH: So they come, they have dinner, and they challenge you. So they did! And so we got talking about the nature of missionary work a little bit.
So I was telling them about some of the things that we did in that group as a moderation team and also a little bit about some of my goals as a Relief Society teacher at the time because I was teaching Relief Society. And as I talked, they just looked more and more confused. And I mean, I kept thinking, Oh, these poor young things, you know, I'm frightening the children.
That's how I felt because I was telling them that I considered enlarging the conversation around church things in order to throw a lifeline to people who are struggling to be “a mission,” quote unquote. To be my mission that I was on because it did feel like that. It felt like I was actually doing missionary work of a kind that was at least as important as trying to bring new people into the church.
If we don't want the ones we've got, why do we want new ones, right?
CW: Yes. Exactly.
SH: This felt really important to me at the time. It made me think about when Lisa talked a few weeks ago on our episode about her own shift from thinking about bringing people into the church to understanding why people are leaving, right?
I feel like that's the same thing. That's very much the work that I was engaged in and I'm pretty sure you were also feeling like you were engaged in at the time leading up to this podcast. And so I stand by that mission as an essential – and it's not just overlooked, but it's also actively thrown under the bus – component of our ministry to the members of this church. Our ministry as members to other members, and the ministry of leadership to the membership of this church feels like that's what it involves to me. Keeping each other in, right? We're supposed to be about meeting people where they are and offering lift, this community lift.
But I don't feel like it operates that way. I feel like in our church, the emphasis is more often getting people to meet us where we are.
CW: Well, when you say it that way, yeah.
SH: Okay. Well, I mean, WWJD, Cynthia.
I just feel like we're not that good at meeting people where they are and, you know, it's one of my personal soapboxes. We even- I was thinking about, we even talk about the Holy Ghost as something that will only come to you if you're in the right place, right? You have to be worthy. And so, that the special gift of the Holy Ghost that church members have is that we can now qualify to have the Holy Ghost to be with us all the time.
So to me, our whole approach sometimes feels like it's a totally backwards approach to what Jesus was doing.
CW: Well, yeah, that's why I just had a moment there for a minute. I thought oh, yeah, you're kinda right, and I wish you weren't right. But I think that's right, that we expect people to meet us, not us meeting them.
SH: Well, that's the goal. Get people on the covenant path. If that's not meeting us where we are, I can't imagine what that would mean. We're pretty explicit about that goal. Which is not exactly the same as bringing people into the fold and then shepherding them once they're there in my opinion. I'm making a distinction between those two things because yes, we are trying to bring people in, so we do want to bring people where we are. But in my opinion we have to meet people where they are in order to, you know, love them forward in the ways that we all want to move forward together.
So that's point number one. The second thing I would say about it is that genuine acknowledgement of this has to come first. And I feel like in our church, any acknowledgement of people who struggle is often backhanded and it's focused on us. Not on the people who are struggling. Like members throw shade at people who leave the church, right?
I heard this just in Fast and Testimony Meeting a week ago in our ward. You know how testimony meetings sometimes develop a theme? Like one person gets up and says something and then the next person-
CW: Yeah, how is that?
SH: I don’t know, but the theme in this meeting was how people who leave the church – poor people who leave the church – they've just forgotten.
They've forgotten, you know, the special experiences they had. They've forgotten what the church has done for them. They've forgotten their, the witnesses of truth that they had. All those things. I mean, it's just not as simple as members sometimes want to cast it when they're sort of disparaging people who leave.
I think we've probably all heard that happen. Parents bemoan their children leaving. I've been that mother, so I totally get that, right? But that's centered on their own grief. It's centered on like the parents, the righteousness of their example in teaching, right? And then they have this fear and bewilderment that for some reason their kids are being deceived when they did [00:10:00] everything right.
That's about them, right? It's about them.
CW: That's a good point.
SH: And like just this week, I heard. I heard all these phrases: “he says he doesn't believe in God,” and “she says she's gay,” and “she claims women aren't treated as equals in the church.” I heard all those things in talking about people who struggle.
And this implies that the person saying it knows better than the person who's explaining themselves, right? And so we need to believe people when they explain. We need to acknowledge whatever problem is going on for people in their lives. And we can't just always approach every conversation with this smugness and this conviction that we are right. And so basically we're only humoring them by listening, hoping to bring them back to meet us where we are.
CW: When you say humoring them, I think we're just biding our time. These kind of seem like placeholder conversations.
SH: I think so.
CW: Like, okay, we'll accept our kids as they are off the covenant path.
We, we might even acquiesce and have them and their partner over for dinner or whatever. But it's always with the caveat that the child who is “wayward” or who has – more air quotes – “strayed”, “wandered”, whatever adjective we use to describe them, that they will come around. Like they will.
SH: Right. Right.
CW: And if you go on the church website, there are hundreds of articles- I just did this the other day in preparation for this, and I typed in family members who leave the church or whatever, and pages and pages and pages come up. And most of them- okay, I didn't read all of them, but at least on the first page, I clicked on a lot of those articles and I didn't find them very helpful.
And I say that as someone who has been on both sides of that fence, like I've been the all in believing member who has said things like, “Oh, they've forgotten” or, “Oh, they have strayed.” So I feel like, I mean, just some of those titles just on the first page and looking up these articles on the church website here were, here's just a few of them:
“Waiting on the Promise.” So, again, there's the waiting part, right? This kind of placeholder. Another one was “Peace, Protection, and Promises.” Right. And another one was “The Hearts of the Children Shall Turn.”
SH: These are all meant to soothe the feelings of the person who has had someone they love leave. Do you notice that?
CW: Yeah. I think for the most part it does maybe soothe them, but what I didn't realize until this time around, researching this topic, is all those placeholder-type words there that we give to parents- and this whole episode isn't about, you know, parents dealing with children who leave. But I just think it's very interesting that over and over it's “they will come back, they will” and then you know, of course that just causes more grief when it's like what 10, 20, 30 years later, and the parents are still hoping and praying and wishing and putting names on temple rolls.
And anyway, like I said, this isn't that episode, but one of the quotes I have heard my whole life- and I'm embarrassed to say, Susan, I think I quoted it in Relief Society once years ago, so forgive me. But the quote was by Orson F. Whitney. I think it's pretty famous. Tell me if you've heard it.
He said, “Either in this life or in the life to come, they will return. They will have to pay their debt to justice. They will suffer for their sins and may tread a thorny path. But if it leads them at last, like the penitent prodigal, to a loving and forgiving father's heart and home, the painful experience will not have been in vain.”
Does that sound familiar? Do you remember that quote at all?
SH: Yes, I do remember that quote and I'm laughing because I'm just looking at that quote where you have it written on the notes here and I'm just thinking check, check, check because it's- it does everything right for the person who is worried about someone who has left.
It assures them that there will be justice, first of all. Nobody's gonna get away with anything here. But also, they will return so you don't need to worry. And somehow this is about a forgiving Father's heart and home- that to me… I just don't see how that all works together to be a very good news message. Like what father is waiting at home to punish his kid- well, anyway. I don't know.
CW: Ooh! Now we’re getting to it!
SH: Cynthia that quote is hard for me, you know, just in a lot of the ways that we approach all of this is hard for me.
CW: And I think your language right there just shows that I think a lot of our language surrounding people who step away from the church is the problem. Like you said a few minutes ago it's about us.
It's about making us feel better instead of meeting, speaking of meeting people where they're at, this is maybe the number one reason where we just can't quite get there. We can't.
SH: I think that's it. Well, how can you [00:15:00] go after someone who's walking away from you say, “Wait, come back! You will be punished- I mean. God loves you. He's waiting to punish you, but we will take you back. Come back. We love you.” What?
CW: Right, right.
SH: Okay, so now let's talk about a few of the specific issues that no one is listening about.
CW: I think listening is the right word there because I do, well, I mean, I guess it's semantics here because they're listening audibly, but I don't think they're understanding and comprehending and meeting people where they're at.
SH: I don't think they're willing to listen that way. To listen for understanding.
CW: Well, I don't want to believe that, but, yeah.
SH: Well, I'm not gonna, I'm- When I guess when I say that, maybe I'm thinking about members in conversation with each other. When you go to talk to a member about something you're really struggling with, how often do you feel like they're really listening to understand, and how often do you feel like they're listening to get, yeah, to give you an answer back that's going to be helpful. So.
CW: Well, if we were to write an open letter to the church, one of the topics, Susan, I would like to include, and I can't believe I put this one first. I should have put this one last when maybe nobody was listening, but I feel like-
SH: Maybe nobody's already listening, Cynthia.
CW: Maybe nobody's already listening. Yeah, the hubris on my part to even say people are still listening, but I think the church owes you and me and people like us – all these crazy podcasters, bloggers, people who are willing to say the hard things out loud – I think we're owed a thank you.
And to be clear, I'm not saying I literally want someone to write me a thank you note or even say thank you. I just think that the work we are doing, like you said about taking those young missionaries out for pizza is you were trying to explain to them the work that you're doing and it is thankless work and it's work that…
It needs to be done by someone. I wish it were being done within the church, but you know, I digress from that. Anyway, but I think if we're- you and I are naming the elephant in the room. And I just think that today in 20- wait, what year are we in? 2024, the Roaring Twenties, we're back to the Roaring Twenties.
I want to believe. I do. I know they… our female and male leaders. They have to be aware of the criticism towards, say, a patriarchal church, like they hear it from within the church, from people like you and me, and they hear it from outside. I mean, do our leaders see whether it's our local leaders or higher up leaders, do they see the work that we're doing?
And do they secretly think, even though that if they can't say a thank you out loud, that we are doing good work and it's work that needs to happen?
SH: I'd love to know. If I were honestly going to speculate, I would guess that some leaders would say, yeah, this work needs to happen. It's important. You're doing good work.
And some would say your work really disturbs and terrifies me. I don't know.
CW: For sure. It would be all over the spectrum actually.
SH: But I think for sure that they're aware of the challenges of a patriarchal church. They're living in the same world that we are, right? So they see the changes that have gone on in the world.
And I maintain that there are dozens of small things that could be done today without touching our doctrine. If anyone cared; if we had the will to do it, we could. And if there are other compelling reasons, apart from doctrine, why we shouldn't bring equality in every way and to every part of this organization that we can, you know, right now by next Sunday, then I want to understand those reasons.
Because when easy improvements get ignored, then it reads to me like not caring about the problem or no appetite for change. And it may be that the second part of that is the important part, that our leadership as presently constituted just generally has no appetite for change, and perhaps even the majority of our members have no appetite for change.
CW: I think there's truth to that.
SH: I do too, but this just means, in my opinion, more people need to be talking about it. And more people will need to leave before we get to the tipping point. And that makes me really, really sad because our richness and diversity are going right out the doors. It'd be great if we could get out in front of that right now, before that had to happen.
I'd love to never reach that tipping point, you know? So I'm gonna say it may actually be time for the church to convene the imagination committee that I am so fond of talking about.
CW: You and your imagination committee Boy is that pie in the sky, Susan.
SH: I know, right? Okay, if they need to they can name it something like retention committee, which sounds a lot more LDS than imagination. But one way or another, Cynthia, we have got to start thinking outside the box so that we can start to cast a wider and smarter net across our [00:20:00] membership.
There is just no other way that I can think of to stop the bleed, but to start thinking larger.
CW: Bet you a million dollars there actually is something called a retention committee at the top that you and I don’t know about.
SH: Yeah, I think so too, but it doesn't involve imagination. No. It's not the open minded conversation that I'm thinking of.
CW: Oh my gosh, but now you have me thinking what if that was a committee at every stake level, every ward level?
Like what if?
SH: Just like throw out every crazy idea that you can think of to reach and connect with people. Yeah. The brainstorm. Brainstorm session.
CW: Oh, I really want that now. Now that we're, now that we're actually imagining what that would look like, that does sound pretty amazing.
SH: And we're talking crazy talk, Cynthia.
CW: I know, we're talking, yeah, we're talking crazy talk. Okay, something else if we were to write an open letter to the church. Four words: women are not okay. I mean, recently even I had – I'll be vague here – I had a priesthood leader call me up and ask me my opinion about retaining… how do we retain young women after they leave young women's and they go on to relieve society?
And I said, I would love to talk about this more another time. I said, but here's one thing I can give you to chew on. I said, and I'm not sure there's anything you can necessarily do about this part. But we at least have to acknowledge we are in a patriarchal church. And you, I said to this person, you can't change that. I can't change that.
And you know what, there was like this long pause. I thought maybe the call had dropped and he said, yeah, I think about that a lot. Now I don't want to tempt fate or anything, but maybe our podcast… Maybe just shedding light on the facts makes our local leaders grateful?
SH: It makes me wonder if there are a lot of leaders on the local level who can, who have good imaginations and are willing to use them and can think of a lot of things that they might change by next Sunday, but they feel like their hands are tied.
CW: Yeah. Oh, that's a really good point.
SH: Like there's very little they can actually do.
CW: I believe that. And we hear that. We hear that from our male listeners. We hear it.
SH: Yes, we do. Yeah.
CW: That they want to make changes and sometimes when they do, there's pushback. And so anyway. That's another topic as well.
But here it is. It's the beginning of 2024, it's the beginning of a new year. And so something you and I have been hearing a whole lot of talk about from women, mostly moms, is this is the time of year where wards have the young men stand up as they're advancing in the priesthood and I know this happens every year, it happened in my own ward. What I was surprised at this year was how much correspondence you and I have received.
SH: So many messages
CW: One of the most heartbreaking ones.
I think it was actually left on, it was left publicly on our social media. She said “I'm not sure why I allowed myself to be demeaned but I know that I don't want my daughter demeaned.” And that's exactly how she felt. She said when all the boys stand up and then her daughter, there's no advancement.
I mean, yeah, they go on to the next class. Most wards don't do that. Even the ones that do though, I feel like it sheds quite a bit of light on, Oh, there's really no responsibility that we're giving the young women here. So that's been hard as we're heading out of January to hear letter after letter after letter from women who are just noticing this, maybe more so now than ever.
SH: I love that women are talking about it because honestly, Cynthia, it's something I had never noticed. I feel like the conversation is important, all the components of it, because you and I had a texting conversation with a friend after this happened in her ward, and she said “today was really hard for me.”
And then she went on to say this, and I just want to read it here because I feel like it's such a good illustration of the complexity that women are holding around some of these things. She said, “My son was adorable and happy. My younger son was adorable. They're listening to his older brother become a priest.”
“All the other priests in the room were adorable. The bishop who I love was adorable about it all. My husband gave him a fabulous blessing that was full of goodness and love and all good things. And all I could think was, my daughter gets nothing here.”
And so I feel like for women in particular in the church, this complexity is really, it's a feature, Cynthia.
It's not a bug. It is a prominent part of our Latter-Day Saint experience as women. And I really want to make it okay for women to have warm feelings about, you know, many of the marvelous things that happen in our church lives while still being able to call out the things that hurt and express our need for pain relief on those things.
It does not make us a traitor to either side to be able to say, “here are these great and beautiful things that are happening. And also. This is a real problem for me.” We're grown ups and we can handle that kind of complexity, can't we? [00:25:00]
CW: Well, I think our friend handled- was handling that complexity quite beautifully as she—
SH: Agreed.
CW: —texted us that because she kept saying, “These people are adorable, they're doing wonderful things, And I'm going to hold this other tension at the same time. It's not right.”
SH: Yeah. It is always “Both, And.” And if we can't live in that space of “Both, And” then I feel like we need to keep working on it until we can, because I think it's important to our survival individually in the church and as a church.
But what women- even if it's just some of us- are saying that they need matters. And when you say the women are not okay, I can think of specific friends that I have who would push back on that and say, “I'm perfectly okay. Stop saying things like that.” It's like one day I made a post about something is the key to healing the church.
And I had a friend who said the church doesn't need healing. So what? Yeah. Yeah. So these are not problems that everyone is experiencing, but even if it's just some women, things that they are saying that they need matters, right? It matters regardless of what the rules of patriarchy or organizational hierarchy require.
Women matter and some members of our flock are experiencing pain as a result of the ways that they feel less than a church. Full stop.
CW: Full stop.
SH: That is just a fact. And in my opinion, as a body of Christ, we shouldn't really need to know anything but that.
CW: Woo. Yeah.
SH: Just knowing, hey, some of our people are in pain, right?
Shouldn't that be all we need to know to make us want to take action? I mentioned on one of the episodes this season that my husband had written a book. It was after our conversation with Lyric Canard.
CW: That's right.
SH: Right? And so, that has been a fun process being involved in getting that to come out.
But I'm gonna, I'm gonna quote my husband's book right here because I just love what he says. And he said, quote, “In Jesus, we see an example of how to resolve conflicts between competing laws. People win. Take care of the people.”
CW: That's good. Good job. I like that!
SH: It's really good. I know, but he's right! In the scriptures, we watch Jesus privilege people over rules all the time, right? But in our church right now, I see the fruits of rules being privileged over women and girls' spiritual well being. Those fruits were not good in Jesus' time and he called them out. They're not good now and they are not going to improve with the passage of time.
This is not going to be better for our little girls right now as they get older if we don't change some things.
CW: Yeah, I mean, I guess I could have called this section instead of “Four Words: Women Are Not Okay.” I could have said some women are not okay, but like you said, that really shouldn't matter. I mean, of course, deep down I want- I would love to know more than anything how many women are not okay, but it really shouldn't matter.
‘Cause one would be enough, I think, to address this problem. And so for the millionth time, can I bring up my “it's cold” theory? Can I bring that up again?
SH: It's so important.It never gets old. Please spell it out again, Cynthia.
CW: Well, as a thermally challenged person, and it is January, when I walk outside, I wear two pairs of pants, I have a hat, you know, I have my down coat on, and inevitably I run into these ridiculous 22 year old BYU students.
‘Cause I do live in Provo and they're wearing like a sweatshirt. Sometimes it's even tied around their waist. And I'm like, Oh, quit bragging about how warm and cozy you are as I’m sitting here with like a double layer of pants on. But saying to women who need more warmth. You know, saying to them, well, Sister X over here, she isn't cold, right?
That's denying her needs and that's denying her lived experience. And again, both can be true at the same time. We can have plenty of women saying- what did you say? Someone said on your post, like. The church doesn't need reforming or something?
SH: That the church doesn't need healing. No healing.
CW: Yes, we can have women who say that and we can have women who say, “I'm freezing over here, I do need healing. I do need something more.” And so I think like the jacketless person out on the trail when I spot them, you know, when they run into me, the two pairs of pants person, maybe the only fact that we can agree on is it is 38 degrees today.
It's 38 degrees. But how they perceive it and how I perceive 38 degrees, I don't think that part is debatable because they're right and I am right. It just is.
SH: Right. Correct. It just is.
CW: My perception is just as valid as their perception. And so I get really tired because it just drives me bonkers when it's like, “Well, I don't feel anything. Why are you feeling-” Anyway, I'll stop. Let's move on.
How about if we had an open letter to the church, one thing we should address is- and this just goes right along with what I was saying- is the church needs to address inequality. Now, [00:30:00] notice I'm not saying like right off the bat, we need to fix it.
I mean, that's just crazy talk, right? The fact that we would fix it. But could we at least address it? Address it.
SH: Amen. I love that distinction.
CW: Well, I mean, is there a way I- because I've been trying to think, is there a way that the church can name the elephant in the room, which is yeah, women are not full and equal partners in our church like they are out in the world.
Could they- is there a way they could ever say that and still maintain the veracity of excluding women from leadership? Would one just… Preclude the other? I don't know. I don't know if there's a way for them to say, “Okay, now here's pie in the sky.” Is there a way for them to say “We know having an all male bishopric or an all male state presidency, an all male high council, area authority, whatever, apostles, we know that can be hard for some women, but dot, dot, dot, dot, dot.”
And I feel like maybe some of those dot, dot, dot fill in the blank things that they-
SH: Yeah, I don't think you want to know those, do you?
CW: No, I don't think you want to know, but that's my point. Would they fill in the blank with saying, like what Elder Bednar said at his press conference, like he could say something like, “Well, Jesus only had male apostles.”
“And so we follow-” I think his exact words were, “and that's the pattern we follow.” Like we only have male apostles. Like, okay, you know, Mary Magdalene is over there raising her hand in the corner, but anyway we won't go there either. But I think what they're basically saying is this is how God wants it and we can't change it.
SH: Right. Right.
CW: Or another thing, you know, filling in the blank of, “Yeah, we know this is hard, but:” and we have heard this one said, “we didn't ask to be in charge.” I can't remember if that was President Nelson or President Oaks.
SH: I think it's President Nelson. Yeah.
CW: Was it? At that initial press conference when they became the first presidency and it's whoa, really?
That's how you're going to address inequality is just by saying, “well, we didn't ask to be in charge.” It's like, but you could change it because you are in charge. Anyway. And the third thing I thought of the fill in the blank they could say is, and they do say is, “Well, men and women just have different responsibilities.”
SH: An oldie but a goodie.
CW: Which we hear women peddling just as much, if not more than men is, well, we just have different responsibilities. But to me, that's really suspect when it's like, well, gee, how nice though, that one group – men – are always in charge of women. Like it's never the other way around.
SH: I mean, I love the distinction that you made between fixing something and addressing it because I want to talk about that for a second. Like our church has leaned into the word patriarchy, even as some other institutions have tried to sort of distance themselves from that word by coming up with things like complementarianism, right, and talking about it that way.
I think a lot of members and leaders in our church are very comfortable just saying this is God's way. Okay. Right? We follow this pattern. This is God's pattern. And then they feel no need to justify it any further, like that's the only explanation that's necessary.
CW: Right.
SH: But for me, and this speaks to the addressing it part of your statement, for me, it would go a long way.
If I would hear – as a next sentence – “That's how we've understood it until now anyway, and we realize that that's really hard. And we realize women are leaving because imagine being a girl and trying to stay in the context of her experience in today's world, right? That's tough. And so we're begging for further light and knowledge.”
“And meanwhile, while we're asking, we're going to do everything that we can to make it better in every way that we can, you know, within our current understanding.” So I want “this is how God wants it” to be the beginning of the conversation. And not the end of it. I want to know how the leaders plan to address this “anyway.”
But instead, you know, “this is how God wants it” is just a shutdown.
CW: I need to lie down, Susan. Because you're right. Because I feel like it is a conversation ender, you know, when parents in the past would say, because I said so.
SH: Right. That's exactly what it is. Because God said so. But couldn't it become a conversation beginner? Like why couldn't it?
CW: There's no reason why it couldn't.
SH: In a church of ongoing revelation and living prophets, shouldn't it- shouldn't everything be a conversation opener?
CW: As you're saying this, I'm thinking, okay, that's what you and I want because we're living in a society that has moved into vulnerability. And a statement like that? Like that little pretend conversation that you just said out loud – is an extremely vulnerable thing to say.
And I just don't see our organization- and you know, to be fair – a lot of organizations showing that kind of vulnerability, saying, we know this is hard, and we're going to keep figuring things out along with you, but we see you and we feel this with you. [00:35:00] Extremely vulnerable.
SH: Yeah I mean, I guess it is, but I didn't ask anyone to admit fault.
I didn't ask anyone to say, you know, we realize this is wrong, but just to say, this is the way that we've understood it until now. And so we're going to keep asking.
CW: Yeah.
SH: Does that feel so dangerous and vulnerable?
CW: It feels vulnerable, but not dangerous. So I really wish that… I don't know, that's why I said I need to lie down because I'm just imagining what that would be like to be part of an organization that would say that to me, like I would break down in sobs.
SH: But that's the way for an organization to meet you where you are. That is the church stepping up to these women who are having a hard time and saying, you know what? We're right here with you. Yeah. We see you and we're going to do everything that we can to ease this suffering while we're, you know, waiting to figure out where we're all gonna go next.
CW: Well how about another thing that you and I have seen for years before we even started this podcast many, many years now, is that the church needs to meaningfully address faith crisis.
SH: Yes.
CW: Yes. Yeah.
SH: This is what I was trying to help those missionaries understand way, way back in the day.
CW: Yes! The church just added two sections to their website called Seeking Answers to Questions and then another section Helping Others with Questions. And if you want to hear like a deep dive on those two sections, I just loved the Latter Day faith episode with our friend, Dan Witherspoon, episodes 171 and 172.
He had James Jones on and he had Janet Johnson Spangler on there. So if you want to hear some amazing people break down what they thought of those sections go listen to those episodes.
And I think what I took from reading those sections on the website is the church is trying, like they're trying. I mean, I saw a lot in there that was good. And I saw a lot that I was like, eh, they missed the mark here. But of course for the hundredth time, this isn't just- Like the decline of religion in America and probably worldwide- It's not just a Mormon problem.
Sometimes I think that always helps me at least when we brought in the conversation and say this isn't just going on in our church- and one of our favorite writers/thinkers/podcasters Pete Enns, here's what he said about that.
He said, “Like a frail plant that needs careful tending and constant protection from sun and wind. Perhaps the real problem wasn't me, but the fragile, unsustainable version of Christianity I had been told was my only option.”
And so I think what Pete is saying, and I think what you and I are trying to say, is that I think we're still pushing a very unsustainable version of Mormonism. I think we're pushing the Mormonism of our grandparents 50, 100 years ago.
And how's that working?
SH: Yeah totally agree. And when I use words like existential, that's exactly what I mean, because I really feel like we are threatened right now, and not sure that some of the things that we are doing are sustainable in the lives of the members. I just don't think they are. But I think it's hard because- I think there are even some members who see the unsustainability as being part of the plan, right? The fact that we're out of step with the world proves that we're doing it right and the fact that this is hard for women is an opportunity for women to, you know, lean into that hardness and be more righteous and more worthy and endure to the end.
Because we take things being hard as proof of extra worthiness. Right?
CW: You just said it. . .
SH: Well, isn't living a higher law a thing? In our culture?
CW: Yes! Right, right. But how many times do we have to say there's good hard and bad hard? Anyway, we don't have to go down that, cause yeah. Yeah.
SH: Oh, that might be an episode next season. Good hard and bad hard.
CW: Good hard, bad hard. That would, that would be good. What's that relationship phrase? Like when someone is breaking up with someone, they say, “it's not you, it's me.” Because I want to say, “it's not me. It's you. It's them.” It's the organization that is- and it's going on globally right now that society's needs are changing and our churches plural are failing to meet them where they are.
And so that's why I love that phrase that Lisa Torcaso Downing said a couple of weeks ago- it went viral. Like we made a social media post where she said “the church is struggling. I'm not the one struggling.” And we had so many women write us and say, yes, finally, someone has nailed it down concisely in one sentence for me. And I thought, yeah, I mean, and you and I know of another person right now who is asking her Bishopric can we have a second Sunday school class, [00:40:00] something more, you know- I don't know why they took it away, like Gospel Principles, right?
That was such a helpful alternative for so many people. And some bishops are saying, yes, you can have a second class. And some are saying no. And of course it's all bishop roulette. But I think they know it's needed. So, I mean, collectively, I don't think the church is addressing faith crisis in a meaningful way.
I think we're addressing it. And that's good. And it's a start. And I hope that ball gets rolling and gets momentum and goes faster and faster. Because I think at the local level, our leaders really do want to do something. But a lot of them, like we've said, they feel like their hands are tied when they take it up the chain.
SH: No, I totally agree. We hear about wards that do have those classes and we hear about wards that are turned down for having those classes and I can't think of any difference except the personal opinions of the people who are in charge in those areas. But I feel like if someone came to me and asked to have some kind of alternative Sunday school class, then I would want to listen to that request and try to figure out what was behind it, right?
And I feel like that's what has to happen in order to be addressing faith crisis meaningfully. That would require listening and listening to understand, but not just to prove how you are, right? Or how the way we're doing it is already the inspired way. I'm going to get really radical here and use my imagination for a minute.
And I believe that, I mean, it just made me laugh to even say that. Who cares what I believe, Cynthia? No one. But I got the microphone.
CW: This is laughable! Get your giggles out.
SH: So I believe that we should have missionaries right now who are called specifically to minister to people who are leaving and not just to change their minds and bring them back, but to minister to them, you know? Who will meet people where they are, understand what's happening with them, right, which requires listening. Offer love and support, demonstrate to them that we're here for them, as a body of Christ, that the door will be open for them always, right?
Figure out how- help people figure out how they could take the positive parts from their church experience forward with them into their lives- and you and I have talked about that before, wanting people to be able to take God with them when they go- and help them feel God's love. Because in a lot of cases, when people are leaving, they have failed to find God's love in their engagement with the organization, and I feel like we could give them a lovely parting gift in that way if we had missionaries who were willing to step in and do that kind of ministry.
Do we care about people's spiritual well being and personal growth, or don't we? Or do we only care about their church membership? It sort of makes me think about… a lot of members are in this relationship with the church, where the church is like their parent.
And do you remember how when we were talking about C.A. Larson, how nobody talked to us about, about- nobody taught us how to have relationships with our children or that that should be our main focus, right? We learned more about how parents, as parents, we should teach our children and train them. Well, I feel like the church has also failed to recognize the importance of the relationship.
And so when people are leaving the church. Then the church is standing there like the parents saying, “Wait a minute, what went wrong? I gave them all my best teachings. We did it. We had family home evening. We had family prayer. We did all the things. What's wrong? They're being deceived.”
And we, you and I both know from watching families go through this and be torn apart by it, but that doesn't bode well for the future relationship of the people involved.
CW: No, never.
SH: It's not good between the parents and children when that's the only thing that the parents emphasize.
CW: I love this idea, Susan. And now I'm just sitting here imagining what would that be like if every ward had a set of, I don't know, senior missionaries or just, you know, whoever in the ward needs a calling and would be good at this.
And I feel like just in what you just said right there, I'm like, Oh, Susan just outlined the curriculum.
SH: I want to go on that mission, Cynthia. I'd love to be on that mission.
CW: Yes. Wow. Well, now we're talking crazy because that would be amazing. I want that calling too. I would absolutely love to be able to minister in that way to say thank you, first of all, to the people who need to step away, thank you for all the years and years of service that you gave us. And then all the wonderful things that, that- That you just said.
So, wow, we really should call this the imagination episode because I feel like we're full of all these- well, I'm just going to say great.
We're having some great ideas here for Susan. Things that, oh, they would just be so wonderful. But now I'm going to be negative Nellie for a minute and say that I see two problems with your proposition here to maybe have this be [00:45:00] missionaries to those who maybe are leaving or struggling or what, well, let's not say struggling.
Right? Cause that's casting a judgment on those who are stepping away. But the first problem I see is that would legitimize people stepping away. And I don't see us ever doing that.
SH: No, I don't either.
CW: I don't- again, that's moving away from a parent child relationship and more to like a peer to peer relationship where we acknowledge the adultiness of the other person at their- they get to decide for themselves. So I don't know. That's the first problem I see.
But the second problem I see is that the church, the people, our wards, whatever- It would be admitting that we did something wrong if somebody is leaving.
Okay. Maybe not even wrong. Cause again, that's like casting judgment on the situation, but that we did something hurtful.
SH: Right. Somebody was hurt.
CW: Somebody was hurt. And I'm not sure as an organization, we have the maturity yet. I mean, so I see a couple of our leaders, like really trying to give voice to the fact that we have hurt people, I just don't know if we're ready as an organization.
But I hope we are. I hope we're getting there. I hope this takes traction.
CW: Another section I think our open letter to the church would need to address is- and we've talked about this already, actually- like, the changing needs of society. What I see is this deep need to know yourself, to find yourself. And I know that sounds kind of woo woo, you know, like finding yourself.
But I mean, just look at the popularity of thinkers and writers like Elizabeth Gilbert or Rob Bell, Sue Monk Kidd, like all these amazing people who are speaking to this inward mission that people are craving. But I really see so much in our church, more still of an outward mission. And saying- and then I don't think I'm wrong in saying that, like, the three- what's the threefold mission of the church, right?
Proclaim the gospel, perfect the saints, redeem the dead. And those are very outward focused in my mind. Those are all about the things we're going to do out in the world. And I know this is a really complicated problem, like the decline of religion. And I don't pretend to know the answers to that.
But I do think that this is one slice of the pie, is that people are wanting more of an inward change, and we're still focusing so much on outward.
SH: Exactly. It isn't that people aren't hungry for meaning right now, and it isn't that they're not willing to do the work of seeking.
CW: Yeah. Yeah.
SH: They are. A lot of people are engaged in searching right now.
CW: They want that inner spirituality. I absolutely believe, lest anyone think that you and I are just tearing down the church- I really do believe that our church has the good roots to teach this type of transformative spirituality. But it's just not part of our current curriculum.
I think people can find it. I have. You have, but it was painstaking work. We had to write our own second hour class. Basically. You and I, we had to go on this kind of journey ourselves. And-
SH: Yeah, I had a woman once say to me in Relief Society, “I don't know how you know all of this stuff. You must read this full time. You must just study this stuff full time.”
And I felt really bad about that because I said to her, yes, actually, I do. Don't you be sitting in your chair thinking, how does she know all of this? You know, I'm so. I'm so woefully behind because I really do study it full time. But Cynthia, that's really what it took.
CW: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. I think we have good roots here. I just, you know, we need that imagination committee once again to write some of this curriculum, because I do think we have such good roots here. I mean, just look at Joseph Smith. My gosh, that man was a mystic. You know, he has his problems, but he…
SH: Right! Expansive. Expansive religious teacher.
CW: Yes. Expansive, for sure. And thinker,
SH: yeah.
CW: Valerie Kaur, who wrote the book See No Stranger- she is an American author, she's a lawyer, she's an activist, she is- she belongs to the Sikh religion. I think I used to pronounce that “seek.” But it's actually Sikh. Yeah. Listening to her audiobook I was like, Ooh, I've been saying this wrong all along.
Anyway, she has this great quote in her book. She said, “Ritual can take many forms. It doesn't require being part of a faith or spiritual tradition. It requires an act of imagination and co-creation. For thousands of years, people have innovated within their spiritual traditions to breathe life into them, reviving old rituals with new energy and meaning.”
SH: I love that. That gets me so excited. I love, yes, I love it. I love the possibility in that.
CW: I love the possibility of reviving our old rituals with new energy and meaning. And I think that's kind of the backbone of this podcast is that you and I are still in the pews and yet we're just trying to talk about it with each other and with whoever wants to listen, how we've been able to [00:50:00] revive our spirituality within a system.
We had to write our own curriculum, but we did, you and I did do it. And I don't in any way want to say that means everybody can do it for sure or not. But I really love what Valerie is saying there is that people have had to do this for ages. We've all had to find meaning within or without the traditions that were all around us.
And it is possible.
CW: It was interesting. I know you started out talking a little bit about a recent Fast and Testimony meeting you were at, and I did as well. Just, I think it was just this month in January. I was just so shocked to hear how many adults my age were still getting up and saying things like, I know the church is true.
And again, to me, I'm like, Oh, that's an outward statement. I'm not interested in outward statements anymore. I'm interested in the inward. I want to know how it's changed you.
CW: And there's a great quote by Richard Rohr. It was in one of his recent daily meditations. We'll link to it where he said, “I have been thinking lately how the search for God and the search for our deepest selves ends up being the same search.”
Now there's something to chew on, right? That in, in looking inside, we end up finding God anyway.
SH: Well, I know it's been true for me.
CW: A hundred percent. Yeah. Going inward is what helped me to find God again in my life.
SH: I don't know. I think when people find that they're really hungry inside, hungry for transformation, then I don't think that outward declarations of unchanging truth – like we often hear from people at church – do anything but highlight the empty feeling.
It almost makes it worse, right? It puts it in some kind of relief to what they're feeling inside and for some of the people who are listening in a meeting like that, declarations of, you know, truth – pulpit-pounding truth – might have the exact opposite effect of what the members are hoping who are bearing that testimony.
If you know that you're not where you want to be, then you know that the things that you thought would get you there haven't gotten you there. And so being assured of how unchangingly true those things are doesn't really help in my experience. So don't tell me how God's truth or your truth is never going to change.
Don't talk to me about how truth never changes. Tell me about how you have learned and internalized truth through your own experience. Like you said, tell me what you know, how you've been transformed by what you know. That is inspirational to me and I feel like that's part of why podcasts like ours have become so popular because we want to hear how this stuff is actually working or not working in people's lives.
That's what I want to know. I'm as interested in having someone stand up and say, “You know what? I found out that this wasn't really true in the way that I thought it was and here's why, and here's what I have come to understand instead,” right? I want to hear about those transformations.
We want to feel less alone in our search for meaning as human beings, I think. And the search itself is as important as the meaning. In this case, I feel like the process actually is the thing. The search is what people are there for. So that's hard in an outward facing.
CW: It is hard in an outward facing…
SH: True church. Yeah.
CW: Yeah. Going back to vulnerability, if we're going to share our inward process? Whoa, that's a lot of vulnerability going on right there. But let's go to the person who was vulnerable and that's Jesus. And talk about inward. I mean, his grace makes me whole. It makes me okay right now, the way I am. The, you know, the kingdom of God is within you, that kind of a thing.
And we speak so much to that inward process on this podcast. Like you said, I think that's part of our success and others like us, and speaking to that inward process. It's not- it turns out it's not just you and I, who knew? This is something that so many are so- they're on similar journeys.
And so it's been wonderful to continue to share this kind of work with other people. And I hope for better days when we can really do more of that inward work in the building.
SH: Totally agree. In our church buildings. I totally agree. And I know it can be frustrating for listeners sometimes when you and I are talking about all these things because they're not finding that in their church experience.
Like sometimes it can feel like, well, the religion Susan and Cynthia are talking about is really great, but that's not the Mormonism that I'm hearing in my ward building. Right?
CW: I hear that a lot, yeah.
SH: And so there can be that kind of disconnect. And that is valid and I hear you, but I just need people to understand that we're talking about all of this inward stuff, not because we have any kind of expertise in it, but because it's the journey that you and I have been on personally.
So that's what we talk about. That being said that's been my work to do and I've really worked hard doing it. I've been full time on that job for some years now, but I feel like the church [00:55:00] has some responsibility, too And here's why that- here we're getting to the part where this belongs in our open letter. Because I have spent my whole lifetime here and I want to stay and I feel like they should want me to stay. But we should also both want me to be spiritually healthy and spiritually fed.
So as I've had to ask myself, you know, what does all of this mean for me now? I feel like my church should be asking itself, Hey, people are struggling to stay. So are we missing the mark in some way? You know, what do the members’ needs require of us now? Instead, I sometimes feel like struggles are dismissed with lines like, “Even the elect will be deceived in the last days,” right?
And I feel like that is just a failure of imagination and an unwillingness to take responsibility and to step up to meet the challenge of true ministry to people. This is why I love the phrase ongoing restoration, Cynthia, because it's a nod to the idea that this organization is also going to be expected to endure to the end.
To make itself relevant in people's lives and to have a reason for existing, you know? When people tell human beings to endure to the end, I think that that implies you're going to have to be able to change and go with the flow and do what you need to do to hang on. And it's going to be hard sometimes, right?
But I think that that kind of change and transformation that a phrase like “endure to the end" sort of brings to mind is also going to be required of this organization. They don't get to keep going along, you know, having no, feeling no pain and having no struggle to hang on and doing nothing to adapt in order to make that happen.
We gotta both be engaged in this process together. Like any relationship, I feel like a church relationship really requires the efforts of both parties. To keep it together, to keep it whole and functional and thriving and, you know, moving forward. All the responsibility can not be on the members of this church.
CW: Hear, hear. Gosh, I feel like just that, just as you said that phrase, like “ongoing restoration,” I feel like the answer is basically baked right into that little phrase.
SH: It is! It is!
CW: And that's the part that gives me hope, but it's also the part that makes me want to pull my hair out. I care so deeply about our organization.
I care about our members. That's why you and I talk about the hard things. I wish we had a dollar for every time you and I said, you know, “I want us to be better” because we mean that. Absolutely. There is no other reason we would be doing this work. No other reason. We would have ridden off into the sunset by now.
You know, I mean, all the good- for the millionth time I've said this, you know, all the good that's happened to me in my life has come as a result of my association with the church. Right. And, I'm going to add a P.S. to that. And the hardest things I have gone through in my life have also been a result of my association with the church.
And that's why I want us to do better. Because a lot of those really hard, hard things shouldn't have happened. And so when I see others going through them, similar things- not exactly the same, but just in that same vein, I think, Oh my gosh, I know what this is like. And I just want us to be better. And so, you know, as we're closing out this episode, I was thinking, okay, who is, who's one of the writers that I find is so hopeful when it comes to talking about this ongoing restoration?
And I thought of Patrick Mason of his book Restoration, right? Speaking of an ongoing restoration. And so let's close with this quote by him. He said, “The ongoing restoration means that every generation and every person must rediscover the gospel of Jesus Christ for themselves. The Pioneer's Restoration was for the Pioneers.”
“Your Grandparent's Restoration was for your Grandparents. The Church has to be alive, has to breathe, has to keep the faith with the tradition, while remaining alive to the present workings of the Spirit.”
SH: That's it. Exactly.
CW: Isn’t it?
SH: It is. Onward, church. Let us keep growing together.
CW: Onward, onward. Thank you, Susan.
SH: Thank you, my friend.
VOICEMAIL 1: Hello. Recently, I went to a three hour multi stake training meeting for leadership in which there was a question and answer session towards the end. The panel for the question and answer was four men, including a member of the Twelve. The very first question asked was by a bishop who wanted to know what more could be done for the girls and women in our wards so that they feel loved, appreciated, and needed.
But the answers of the four men gravitated around what has already been done for women, what responsibilities they already have, and also lots of platitudes about how much they [01:00:00] love and appreciate women. Even going so far as to say things like, well I have four sons and I love them, but man, the way that I love my daughter is just so much more.
But I found it pretty ironic that they were professing all of this love for women, but not a single woman was represented in the three hour meeting. Not a single woman was asked to speak or be on this panel. In the end, the only woman represented in the meeting was the matron of the temple that they asked to give a two minute testimony, so she wasn't even given the dignity of being able to prepare her remarks and just had to speak off the top of her head.
VOICEMAIL 2: Hi, Cynthia and Susan. I'm inspired to send this after listening to your patriarchal blessings episode. And the messages from other women about their blessings. And in my patriarchal blessing that I got when I was 15, I um- It talks a lot about how I needed to prepare myself for the temple and I would be married to someone and we would have this love that was so deep.
Would be so deep and happy and grow each day throughout eternity. And I'm on my second marriage and both in the temple and both have been very emotionally and verbally abusive, both of my spouses. And it's been hard to reconcile. So to be honest, I don't take as much stock in it anymore. It used to bring me a lot of peace and hope, but I, I don't know.
Yeah, I just don't really depend on it anymore and frankly, I'm disappointed with that promise and the level of unhappiness I've had in my marriage relationships. Thank you.
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This project is supported by listeners like you. We hope you'll join the conversation on social media and atlastshesaidit.substack.com. Thanks for listening.