A Wrinkle In Time and How NOT to Build Zion

by Mara

In this essay I will address the building of Zion, how we may

be thinking about it in a flawed way, and how we can think about it instead. I will focus on the qualification “of one heart and one mind”—the principle of unity.

The scripture I just quoted in Moses is a description of the city of Enoch, and it could be argued that the description is unique to just that city. It is commonly used as a description in the church, however, as the kind of society we should be working for, since prophecies claim that Zion, the New Jerusalem, will be built in the last days, and we are also members of Zion inasmuch as we are members of stakes of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. In addition, the scripture says the people were called Zion “because they were of one heart and one mind,” implying that Zion is a title bestowed on people who meet those qualifications and not just the people of Enoch. I feel it is therefore appropriate here to discuss the building of Zion as something that we can all work towards.

At this point you might be wondering about why I called this piece “How NOT to build Zion.” In addition to being an attention-grabber, this title shows that most of this essay will focus on how this scripture can be misinterpreted and how we can read it instead.

The idea of being “of one heart and one mind” can be interpreted in more than one way, and I would like to discuss one way this could be interpreted that I am going to argue is incorrect—that everyone feels, thinks, and acts exactly the same.

This is not a completely unreasonable way to understand the scripture, since other scriptures tell us,

“I say unto you, be one; and if ye are not one, ye are not mine.” (D&C 38:27)

and

“I beseech you that there be no divisions among you, but that ye be perfectly joined together.” (1 Corinthians 1:10)

However, if the idea of “one heart and one mind” is applied irresponsibly, it may be interpreted to mean that we give up our agency and individuality and all become exactly the same. I argue that sameness is undesirable as a quality in Zion, while unity can be built another way.

In the well-known book “A Wrinkle in Time” by Madeleine L’Engle, the characters Meg and Charles Wallace visit a planet called Camazotz where everyone behaves exactly the same because they are controlled by a totalitarian mind called IT that does not tolerate any deviation. When they first enter the town, they view a residential neighborhood that seems to be like a pleasant place at first but they soon discover there is a difference from what they are used to.

Meg and Charles Wallace continue into town and discover that these children and mothers, along with other inhabitants of the town, are under the strict control of the being IT, which uses fear and intimidation to make everything perfect. The effect is absolutely chilling: everything on the planet works perfectly because IT wills it so. IT tells the children:

The effect is quite chilling. IT’s words remind me of the arguments made by Lucifer during the council in heaven:

“Behold, here am I, send me, I will be they son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor.” (Moses 4: 1)

We might often feel that the Church is teaching that everyone must be exactly the same; we certainly do have a lot of commandments and “rules” that we expect people to follow in order to be considered a “good” member. But in fact the scriptures have taught us that it is only in diversity, not sameness, that we will be able to build things properly.

Consider the teachings in 1 Corinthians 12, which compares the followers of Christ to a human body:

“If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. And if they were all one member, where were the body? But now they are many members, yet one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.” (1 Corinthians 12: 17-21)

The author explains clearly here why sameness is not only not unifying but also not useful. “And if they were one member, where were the body?” In other words, if all the people of Christ were hands, exactly as the same as each other, we would not have a unified body, but only a collection of disembodied hands. And since each of the hands was exactly the same, the body would receive no additional functionality by joining two or more of the hands together. So they are separated and each hand has only the functionality it brought to the situation.

When the people of Christ are different types of body parts, however, the body is able to be unified: “But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body.” The parts make a body together and complement each other as members of the body. In addition, each part in this diverse body has access to the utility of the other parts of the body: the eye cannot hear, and the ear cannot smell. But by being part of a great body with the other members, each body part has access to the functionality of the whole body and contributes to that greater functionality.

Discussions of spiritual gifts in the scriptures also point out that diversity is needed for increased functionality as a unified church:

“And again, I exhort you, my brethren, that ye deny not the gifts of God… And there are different ways that these gifts are administered; but it is the same God who worketh all in all; and they are given by the manifestations of the Spirit of God unto men, to profit them.” (Moroni 10: 8)

They are given by the Spirit to profit them as a whole, not just one particular member. Therefore, the collective, unified body has access to all of the spiritual gifts, increasing its abilities in comparison to one member.

In short, Zion is not Zion in spite of diversity, but because of diversity. Those members of the church who feel they are different are just what the church needs, and the church as a whole suffers when they choose not to be part of us.

What does it mean then to be “of one heart and one mind?” How can we then understand these scriptures without understanding them to be talking about complete sameness? Consider these descriptions of the kind of mind and heart we should have:

“...Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all they heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.” (Matthew 22:37)

“...that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;” (Phillipians 1:27)

“For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:” (Hebrews 8:10)

“And ye will not have a mind to injure one another, but to live peaceably…” (Mosiah 4:13)

“Behold, the Lord requireth the heart and a willing mind;” (D&C 64:34)

“Blessed are the pure in heart…” (Matthew 5:8)

“And ye shall offer for a sacrifice… a broken heart and a contrite spirit…” (3 Nephi 9:20)

We can bring minds that are full of love, striving, peaceful, and willing to make covenants with the Lord, and hearts that are loving, contrite and pure. These are the characteristics that will unify us in a way that we are not all the same like servants of a controlling IT-like mind, but that we can benefit from each other’s differences.

Checking Boxes

by Marlee Bedke

Letting the Fields Lie Fallow

by Brooke RaNae Palmer

I live in Southeastern Idaho, just over the Utah border in

the first Idaho community settled by Mormon pioneers. When they arrived, the land was thick with sagebrush—wild, dry, and unpromising. What transformed it into farmland was not just effort, but an irrigation system.

To catch the spring snowmelt, they excavated reservoirs with horse teams and cast iron implements, carved canals and ditches with hand tools, and relied on gravity to carry water across hundreds of acres. It was a carefully planned feat of engineering.

Presently there are 5 canal companies and 13 reservoirs in Franklin County, and many of the ditches and canals have been encased in pipe and buried in the ground, and by-and-large, it is still gravity that sends the water where it needs to go. For more than a century, water has moved because it has been guided to move, again and again, in a carefully maintained system.

This irrigation infrastructure has shaped the land, and it shaped the people who lived on it—teaching them to produce, to maximize, to make the desert yield. Over time, farming became the dominant industry here, and with it came a rhythm: plow, sew, water, grow, harvest, repeat.

Despite improving the rate of crop production, on-demand irrigation isn’t always positive. Constant farming also depletes the ground of minerals and nutrients, which then are usually replaced with another man-made innovation: chemical fertilizers. (But that’s a subject for another day.)

As you travel north, there are “dry farm,” areas where irrigation is not able to reach. The land is too far from the reservoirs, or it is too hilly for the gravity flow to be able to work. So, these farmers have learned to farm in a different way. Some years these fields lie fallow. To a passerby, they look abandoned: overgrown with weeds, marked by washouts where snowmelt has pooled and receded. They do not appear productive. They do not appear tended.

And yet, this too is a deliberate practice because through this period of rest, the soil is able to gather moisture deep into the ground. The weeds, when eventually turned under, become nourishment. When the field is planted again—often with hardy wheat—it draws on what has been quietly stored below the surface. The crop is able to grow without being dependent on a man-made watering system. It can even grow through a summer that gets very little rain because the moisture has been allowed to accumulate in the earth. It may yield less than irrigated land, but it yields enough. It survives.

I can guarantee that over the past 165 years, these stewards of the land have tried to come up with a way to get onto an irrigated system. It’s not for lack of ingenuity, or money, or will power. It would take a seismic shift in the landscape for something like that to happen.

On the other hand, there are thousands of acres watered by man-made irrigation, and so they’re able to produce more varied and abundant crops. They are not as limited by the amount of water that is provided by rainfall. On irrigated land, a farmer can sometimes get up to four cuttings of hay, compared to two on a dry farm.

Growing up in the church, in a community that was predominately LDS, I was part of a man-made irrigated system. I was watered consistently and thoroughly. As a child I grew both homemaking and leadership skills. As a young woman I produced a temple marriage and raised 4 wonderful children. As a member of my ward, I was a steward of Primary children, YW and YM, and Relief Society sisters. And like the irrigated fields around me, I was taught—implicitly and explicitly—to produce, produce, produce.

But then the unthinkable happened, I experienced a huge seismic shift, one that had been building up for years. There had been tremors, but I ignored them in favor of producing. This shift threw me off of the irrigation system that had been the framework of my life.

All of a sudden, the pipes that led out of my reservoir were fractured, the flow disrupted, and I learned that systems, even sustaining ones, can break if they become too rigid and confining.

I tried to limp along, doing the same things I’d always done, tried to grow the same crops, followed the same patterns, expected the same results, but without the constant water, my output shriveled up. I found myself exhausted, unable to sustain what once felt natural. I tried to get back on the system, but returning to the old system was not an option; it no longer felt like nourishment. It felt contaminated.

What I did not realize, at first, was that I was being invited into a different method of growing—the kind practiced by dry farmers, a season of fallowness, completely reliant on mother nature.

Having observed many fallow fields over the years, I knew during this phase of fallow-ness the field would be ugly. There would be weeds growing in it. There would be washouts from melt-off and rain. My neighbors might drive by and wonder what happened to my beautifully cultivated field and why I was letting it run to ruin now.

I am learning how to let a field lie fallow. I know my field doesn’t have to look perfect, or even pretty.

However, I don’t have to rely solely on my own observations as I employ this technique. This, too, has roots in my inheritance, I have dry farming in my genetic code. Not only do I have Mormon pioneers on one side of the family, but I also come from Volga German stock. In 1762 Catherine the Great invited immigrants to settle in Russia. Many Hessian Germans formed a community on the banks of the Volga River and there they developed agricultural practices shaped by scarcity and resilience: crop rotation, soil stewardship, and the intentional leaving of land unplanted. They became some of the most important wheat growers in the empire.

However, their history, too, is marked by disruption. By the late 19^th century there had been many seismic shifts in Russian politics and eventually many of the Volga Germans emigrated to the United States. Carrying their knowledge with them to the mid-west and western states, they grew a variety of crops: rye, potatoes, sunflowers, sugar beets and the red wheat with which we are all familiar. Adaptation was not optional; it was survival. Long before any Mormon Utahans were farming, the Volga Germans had been using innovative farming techniques, including allowing a field to lay fallow. They understood that in order to get the best production out a piece of ground, they needed to let it rest, to gather moisture and nutrients.

If the Mormon pioneers taught me how to build systems, the Volga Germans remind me how to live when those systems fail. If you Google “Volga Germans” you will see that they are known for their tenacious work ethic. If you read between the lines, you will also notice that they are farmers who understood the necessity of rest and were remarkably versatile. And while I applaud my Mormon ancestors for their tenacity and work ethic, I feel like those of us in the Mormon belt may have lost the versatility that we once had. Instead, we are relying too much on man-made irrigation to produce, produce, produce.

Now after this seismic shift in my own life, I am going to hearken back to my German roots, where a season of fallowness isn’t a liability, it isn’t unacceptable, but is counted as necessary. I am learning how to let a field lie fallow. I know my field doesn’t have to look perfect, or even pretty. It’s okay that it’s filled with weeds—unanswered questions, unfinished thoughts, grief that surfaces unpredictably. There are washouts, places where old structures have collapsed under the weight of change. From the outside, it might appear neglected, as though I have stepped away from responsibility or purpose. To be fallow is to remain present without forcing growth. It is to trust that something is happening beneath the surface, even when it cannot be measured or displayed.

This season is sustaining me in ways I could not have anticipated. It has loosened my dependence on constant production. It has reconnected me to something more elemental—something like the slow accumulation of moisture in the soil, unseen but essential. At some point, in a season when I’m strong enough, or feel good enough, or when I’ve finally figure something out, I’ll just plow everything under and those weeds will be part of the nourishment of the soil. I do not know yet what I will plant when this season ends. I suspect it will be something different from what I grew before—something that can reach deeper, something less dependent on carefully controlled systems, one that isn’t common in this LDS soil. A crop that doesn’t leave me burned-out or reliant on anything man-made.

For now, it is enough to tend this field as it is. To let the field lie fallow. To trust the work of rest. To believe that meaning, like water, does not always arrive on command—but can still be gathered, held, and, in time, made to nourish what comes next.

Women Who Understand

by Lisa Fluckiger

A Vision of Living Thread

by Jessie Santa Maria Whittaker

And it came to pass that I beheld a land covered in mist, and many

voices were heard within it, speaking commandments and judgments to the travelers who walked there.

And the mist was thick at times, heavy with the weight of words and expectations, pressing upon the shoulders of those who passed. And at other times it parted, letting light spill gently upon the path of the traveler.

And I saw a rod of iron stretching across the land, straight and unbending, and many did cling unto it with great effort. And the rod did ascend upward unto a great building that stood high above the earth.

And the building was filled with people who looked down from lofty windows and balconies. They spoke with certainty and mocked the travelers in the mist. And though the building appeared magnificent, I perceived that it had no foundation beneath it.

And near the rod I beheld a young girl who had just loosed her hands from the iron. She looked upon the building with troubled eyes, for she knew it was not her home, yet she feared to depart from the path she had been taught.

And as I watched, a thread of gold came gently into my hands. It was soft and living, and it moved with me as I walked.

And I perceived that the thread grew brighter when I walked in compassion, and dimmed when I walked in fear, yet it did not depart from me.

And I beheld that there were many such threads moving through the mist in every direction. Some crossed and some parted, yet all were woven together into a great tapestry that stretched across the earth.

And I saw that the tapestry was not yet complete, for new threads were continually being woven into it by the lives of those who walked the earth.

And following the thread, I came unto a tree whose beauty was beyond all that I had known. And the fruit thereof filled my soul with a great and quiet love, sweet and comforting to taste.

And I beheld that the roots of the tree reached deep into the earth and drew life from hidden waters beneath the world, even from living springs that did not fail.

And the branches spread wide as though to gather all who hungered for its fruit.

And I saw that the trunk of the tree opened as a doorway, and beyond it was a garden where light and shadow dwelt together, and the light made the shadows gentle.

And I turned again and saw the young girl standing in the mist, and I went unto her and held her with compassion, for I knew her burdens and her longing for goodness.

And as we stood beneath the tree, I perceived that the light which shone there had also been within us from the beginning, a spark of the divine entrusted to our care.

And the golden threads continued to move through the world, weaving the journeys of many souls together.

And I knew then that the journey toward God was not a single road to be followed, but a living weaving of souls learning, stumbling, and shining together.

And I bore record that the love which grew from that tree was the true guide of the soul; and whosoever walked in that love need not fear the mist, for the light within them would ever lead them onward.

Contributors:

Mara

Marlee Bedke

Marlee is a “stretchy saint” that’s doing her best to find her place and voice at church. She’s become the girl that shocks her southern Utah ward by holding her daughter during her baby blessing, wearing a rainbow bracelet, finding God outside the normal Primary answers, and sharing “liberal” things on social media. She’s lucky to be married to her best friend, and they lead their home and 2 young kids as equal partners. She’s a mindful yoga teacher, a daycare supervisor, an amateur gardener, a proud firefighter wife, a sourdough baker, a hiker, a Krispy Kreme fanatic and an avid reader.

Brooke RaNae Palmer

Brooke is a big thinker, voracious reader, stained glass enthusiast, and heavy metal headbanger, in addition to being a loving nana, mother of 4, happy farm wife and badass homemaker.

Lisa Fluckiger

Lisa is a second year grad student in Chadron State College's Clinical Mental Health Counseling MAE program. Her most recent work has been providing SEL education and support for middle school students. Long ago at BYU, Lisa earned a BA degree in chemistry and then a master's degree in Curriculum and Instruction, with an emphasis in the inclusive classroom. Her family owns a small artisan bakery in the small town where they live, and it is a place where their daughter, Eleanor, can have meaningful work and continue to participate in the community. Totally her husband's dream, and she is all for it! In addition to studying mental health, Lisa is loving life beyond church, running with her dogs, yoga, and writing. Also Netflix.

Jessie Santa Maria Whittaker

Therapist, writer, professional meaning-maker, wife, and momma. Jessie sits with big feelings, sacred questions, and nervous systems that have had a rough day—or life. She is a lover of Christmas magic, messy faith, honest stories, and the brave work of becoming fully human.

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One of the hallmarks of a big idea is that it's connected to so many others. In Episode 268, Susan and Cynthia revisit the Big Idea episodes that formed the theme of ALSSI Season 11. After discussing these topics, If there's one thing we're sure of it's that we only scratched the surface.

Notes & Quotes:
Jim Palmer on Facebook
Cherished Belonging: The Healing Power of Love in Divided Times, by Gregory Boyle
Healing Acts of Connection, Center for Action and Contemplation, 3/11/2026
Seeing the Underside and Seeing God: Tattoos, Tradition, and Grace, On Being podcast, Krista Tippet with Nadia Bolz-Weber, 10/23/2014
Sanctification Explained Simply, by Bryan Schneider, Gentle Reformation, 8/21/2024
Keep Trying, by Marvin J. Ashton, Liahona Magazine, 08/2018
What If Prayer Isn’t What You Think It Is?, Kate Bowler with Malcolm Guite, Everything Happens podcast
Mike Petrow: The Path of Descent, Faith Matters podcast, 3/23/2025
Sabbath As Resistance, Ruth Haley Barton with Cole Arthur Riley, Strengthening the Soul of Your Leadership podcast, Season 17 Ep. 3

“The pattern is so obvious that it is almost invisible. The religion a person considers sacred truth is usually the religion of their family, culture, geography, and historical inheritance. Most people do not arrive at their religious worldview after a comprehensive investigation of the world’s competing claims about ultimate reality. They do not spend years objectively evaluating every major religious tradition, philosophical system, and metaphysical framework before reaching a carefully reasoned conclusion. They inherit a story. They are born into a language, a culture, a community, and a set of assumptions that become the lens through which reality itself is interpreted. This does not mean their beliefs are false. It means their beliefs are situated. The problem begins when people forget this. Religious certainty often presents itself as though it emerged from pure reason, divine selection, or unique spiritual insight. Yet if most of us had been born somewhere else, to different parents, speaking a different language, we would likely be defending an entirely different set of convictions with equal confidence. The beliefs that feel self-evident to us frequently owe as much to circumstance as they do to careful examination.” —Jim Palmer

“Sin is an old world map.” —Gregory Boyle

“Is the love of God looking down on a sinful world in need of salvation, or does our God see a broken world in pain and in need of healing?” —Gregory Boyle

“The movement we made in the last century of not calling addiction sin, but calling it a disease, I think was a major movement. There’s very little freedom when we sin. Very little freedom. We cannot not do it. Virtue is an ultimately free action. Sin is when you’re most unfree.” —Richard Rohr

“I loved the emphasis on grace, the fact that God always is coming to us. There’s nothing we do to make our way to God. God is continually coming to us and interrupting our lives and wanting to be known.” —Nadia Bolz-Weber

“There is a danger in sanctification—a false pride that can creep in. [...] This often happens when people see sanctification as a stairway upwards. They imagine that they were saved at a certain point, and as they climb the stairs of holiness, they become increasingly aware of their progress. They feel they’re getting better and better, seemingly ascending into heaven. Their self-perception becomes one of self-improvement. [...] I am convinced that this is the exact opposite of how the Spirit works to sanctify us. Sanctification isn’t a stairway upwards to higher and higher rungs of holiness. No, sanctification is a downward soul work. Now imagine a different picture: Stairs descending downward, spiraling deeper through the heart.” —Bryan Schneider

"To become a winner in the race for eternal life requires effort—constant work, striving, and enduring well with God’s help." —Marvin J. Ashton

“We develop a story or system in our minds and whatever doesn’t fit, our brains exclude it because we only want to judge new information based on the information we already have that we’re comfortable with. And so, our old information and our old trusted authorities create a screen.” —Brain McLaren

“Community bias, it's almost impossible to see what our community doesn't see, or what our community doesn't want us to see. You could think of this as a community confirmation bias, and our identity is wrapped up with the community we belong in, and it's very hard for us to accept some ideas if they will put us out of sync with our community because that will rob from us our secure social location or identity.” —Brian McLaren

“If I were to say people can't see what they can't see, that's true, but it's not the whole truth. They can't see what they can't see until someone helps them see it, or maybe a new life experience comes along that helps them see it.” —Brian McLaren

”Reason is the natural organ of truth, but imagination is the organ of meaning.” —C.S. Lewis (via Malcom Guite)

“When we don't understand it and it doesn't make sense, it can be an invitation to think more deeply and look for a meaning worthy of a god we believe in, a god of love.” —Mike Petrow

“It’s the audacity to face the demands of this world and proclaim, ‘We will not be owned.’” —Cole Arthur Riley

“When we practice Sabbath we are saying to this world, ‘You do not own me. I am not owned by your values, I am not owned by your schedule, I am not owned by your consumerism, I am not owned by somebody else’s priorities for me. On this day, I am not owned by anyone else but God Himself or Herself. I am proclaiming where I belong [and] who I belong to.” —Ruth Haley Barton

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An Evening with At Last She Said It
Tuesday, July 21
7:00 - 9:00 pm
3301 E Louise Ave
Millcreek, UT 84109

Bring a friend, and/or come make a bunch of new ones!
Plan on a short presentation from Cynthia and Susan, followed by plenty of time to get to know (and enjoy cake with!) members of the ALSSI community.

Seats are limited—register by clicking this link today!

(Please do us a favor and share this email with someone you know who might like info about the gathering.)

See you soon!

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“All real living is meeting.”

So says Martin Buber, and if you don’t know his work but his name sounds familiar, it may be because I touched briefly on his ideas contrasting trust in vs. belief that in our recent episode about Myth.

I’m starting with him here because that line sits at the heart of Susan’s Presence Project, aka Summer 2026. The best way for me to really accomplish a thing is to find an alliterative title for whatever it is I’m supposed to be doing—surely that’s 90% of the work, isn’t it?

This approach would undoubtedly explain a lot about my life, especially if you looked in my closets. Let’s just say I’m a better starter than finisher, but I’m really gifted at making it Sound Like I’m Doing Something.

Look, I want to become a master of presence, with a deep grasp of the Fundamental Meaning Underlying All Things, including this moment right now.

And this one.

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In Episode 267, Susan and Cynthia ask Jen, Jessie, and Anne, What Do You Say? It’s the fifth installment of ALSSI’s series of episodes involving questions, answers, and the wide-ranging conversations they inspire among Latter-day Saint women.

Notes & Quotes:
Hear our previous conversation with Jen Dille on ALSSI Ep. 233
Hear more from Anne Pimentel on ALSSI Ep. 192 and Ep. 214
Comfortable with Uncertainty: 108 Teachings on Cultivating Fearlessness and Compassion, by Pema Chödrön, Emily Hilburn Sell (Editor)
Brené Brown on How to Reckon with Emotion and Change Your Narrative, by Brené Brown, O, The Oprah Magazine, 9/2015

“Do I prefer to grow up and relate to life directly, or do I choose to live and die in fear?” —Pema Chödrön

“We can bring ourselves back to the spiritual path countless times every day simply by exercising our willingness to rest in the uncertainty of the present moment—over and over again.” —Pema Chödrön, (p. 7 Kindle)

“Steve opened the refrigerator and sighed. ‘We have no groceries. Not even lunch meat.’ I shot back, ‘I'm doing the best I can. You can shop, too!’ ‘I know,’ he said in a measured voice. ‘I do it every week. What's going on?’ I knew exactly what was going on: I had turned his comment into a story about how I'm a disorganized, unreliable partner and mother. I apologized and started my next sentence with the phrase that's become a lifesaver in my marriage, parenting and professional life: ‘The story I'm making up is that you were blaming me for not having groceries, that I was screwing up.’ Steve said, ‘No, I was going to shop yesterday, but I didn't have time. I'm not blaming you. I'm hungry.’” —Brené Brown

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Many thanks to listener Rebecca Graham for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app or can be listened to here on our website as well. All the notes and resources we cited in the episode are found at this link as well:

Listen to Episode 267

Episode 267 (Transcript): What Do You Say? Three Conversations about Holy Envy, Uncertainty, and Forgiving Yourself

Anne Pimentel: I think that when people have an expansive faith experience, to the outside, to the maybe orthodox member, it looks like they’re falling away.

CW: Yeah.

AP: And people may think that about me right now as I’m expanding and changing how I approach church, but what they may not understand is that I have never felt closer to God than I do right now, and my relationship is deeper and more enriching than it ever has been.

And so we have this fear of changing how we do church, but I think that when you really dig deep into it, it is such a beautiful deepening experience.

_____

CW: Hi, I’m Cynthia Winward.

SH: And I’m Susan Hinkley.

CW: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things, and the title of today’s episode is “What Do You Say? Three Conversations About Holy Envy, Uncertainty, and Forgiving Yourself.” Hello, Susan.

SH: Hello, Cynthia. I’m looking forward to these conversations today, but can I take a second for housekeeping before we start?

CW: Please.

SH: I wanted to let listeners know that this is our second to last episode of our regular season episodes for Season 11. We’ll have one more next week, and then we’re going on summer vacation, Cynthia.

CW: Summer vacation.

SH: But there will be more ... We haven’t finished with all of our “What Do You Say?” interviews yet, and so there will be some “What Do You Say?” dessert over the summer, and-

CW: Nice

SH: And that will show up in the form of a bonus episode. And then we will have a few other bonuses, and we hope that people will hang with us for the bonuses and come back with us when we resume in early fall, I guess. Late summer, early fall.

CW: Mhmm!

SH: Yeah. Not gonna pin any dates down on that yet. I also wanted to thank the listeners. We … People may have noticed we’ve had a little bit of a mini pledge drive going on here. And I wanted to thank people for their generosity in all the ways that they have supported the podcast, but particularly at this time, financially. We have appreciated that, and so thank you to everyone who has donated, who has helped us out with a paid subscription on Substack.

And I just wanna give people a reminder that even if we stop talking about that, you can keep thinking about it.

CW: [laughing]

SH: And we’re happy to have your support any time that you can afford to kick a dollar our way. And also a reminder that we are a 501[c][3], and so if people will hit the donate button on our website to make a donation, those are tax-deductible. A paid subscription to our Substack actually is not tax-deductible, so that’s something else people may wanna consider when they’re figuring out the best way to support the podcast.

CW: Nice! Good housekeeping. Alright. Are we ready?

SH: Yeah, let’s get to the good stuff.

CW: All right. Let’s get to our three conversations, and then I’ll meet you back here for Contemplation Corner. How’s that?

SH: Perfect.

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Author’s note

I am a cisgender, heterosexual female with privilege and bias. In this essay I am speaking through my heteronormative lens which is inherently flawed. I am trying to cultivate a space of love, acceptance and safety, but I am not part of the queer community. As much as I try to understand, their experiences are not my experiences. The only way to truly learn about queer experiences is to talk to queer individuals. Hearing their lived experience is essential to the work of allyship. Please, do the work to create a safe space for your LGBTQ+ loved ones.

by Blakelee Ellis

TW: homophobia, suicide

In October 2019 President Dallin H. Oaks addressed the

women of the church during the women’s session of general conference. I was at a stake center with several of my sisters-in-law and my mother-in-law and I just couldn’t stop crying. President Oaks greeted the sisters as a “divinely assigned guardian of the eternal family,” and talked about the implications the doctrine of eternal marriage has for LGBTQ+ individuals. He said,

The work of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is ultimately concerned with preparing the children of God for the celestial kingdom, and most particularly for its highest glory, exaltation or eternal life. That highest destiny is possible only through marriage for eternity…

…That is the destiny we desire for all we love. Because of that love, we cannot let our love supersede the commandments and the plan and work of God, which we know will bring those we love their greatest happiness.

But there are many we love, including some who have the restored gospel, who do not believe in or choose not to follow God’s commandments about marriage and the law of chastity. What about them?

God’s doctrine shows that all of us are His children and that He has created us to have joy. Modern revelation teaches that God has provided a plan for a mortal experience in which all can choose obedience to seek His highest blessings or make choices that lead to one of the less glorious kingdoms.

I went home after the session and sobbed to my husband. He was admittedly confused because these topics had never generated such angst in me before. In the decade we had been married, I had always accepted my siblings, but “known” that they were not living the way God wanted them to and there would be eternal consequences. So this meltdown over what President Oaks had said was very uncharacteristic for me. As I cried, I distinctly remember asking my husband, “You believe all this is true, right? This church. You think it’s true, right? Because my heart is broken and it doesn’t feel true.”

President Oaks hadn’t said anything new about the LGBTQ+ community or eternal marriage or the law of chastity. Nothing about the doctrine had changed, but my heart had.

I had just been a part of my sister’s wedding to her wife a few weeks earlier. I stood by while they pledged to love and care for each other and it didn’t seem any less godly or sacred just because it was two women. How could someone as loving, as kind, as caring as my sister receive less of God’s glory simply because she loved a woman instead of a man? Did I really believe in a Heavenly Father that would withhold love, the greatest of happiness, all his glory because two women loved each other?

The metaphorical shelf that held all of my questions about the church and it’s teachings broke and my soul was left agonizing in the rubble. It marked the beginning of so many hours examining my beliefs about the nature of God and everything I thought I knew. I had let church leaders and doctrine form my opinions about God’s plan for LGBTQ+ individuals. I listened while these white, cisgender, heterosexual men told me about the queer community and how God felt about them. Just like I listened while they told me what it meant to be a woman of God.

Everything changed for me when I stopped being told ABOUT the queer community and started actually listening TO the queer community.

I listened while brave individuals talked about reconciling their sexuality with their own beliefs in God and what it meant to be queer. It changed me. Rather than try to tell you ABOUT what some of the queer community has said, I’d encourage you to listen TO the queer community.

Looking for a place to start? Check out our own episodes with Meghan Decker and Colette Dalton. Don’t miss all the additional resources listed at the end of the essay.

June is Pride month for the LGBTQ+ community and many wonder why the queer community needs a month dedicated to celebration and pride. Ben Schilaty, my friend and openly gay Latter-day Saint, recently said this:

Even though I am not queer, I’ve had my own pride awakening.

Pride that I have a gay brother and gay sister.

Pride that I know that God loves them as they are.

Pride that I am an ally.

Pride that I will navigate the uncomfortable space that being a member and being an ally creates.

Since my faith deconstruction, one of the main reasons I continue to go to church is my pride and queer allyship. I wear rainbow pins so the closeted adults in my ward know I’m a safe space. I carry a rainbow bag every week so the youth know there is someone at church that supports them just as they are. I wear a rainbow dress to church to let everyone know that we have to fight for and with our queer loved ones to dismantle systems of oppression. Queer folks are tired! They need allies to help share this load, but not steal the microphone.

I believe allyship is a divine calling and in the current political climate, it is important to be vocal about our support for the LGBTQ+ community, especially at our places of worship. This past Sunday, in his weekly email, Into The Gray, Reverend Benjamin Cremer wrote:

I believe the nature of God is one of deep love and grace. Listening to the queer community helped me, in part, form that belief. That is the image of God I believe we, as Latter-day Saint allies, need to reflect to the world and specifically to our fellow church members. Current church doctrine and policies continue to alienate and wound our queer church members, particularly those in the transgender community.

In Jeremiah 23, there is a sobering echo of how the church treats its queer members:

1 Woe to the shepherds who are destroying and scattering the sheep of my pasture!” declares the Lord.

2 Therefore this is what the Lord, the God of Israel, says to the shepherds who tend my people: “Because you have scattered my flock and driven them away and have not bestowed care on them, I will bestow punishment on you for the evil you have done,” declares the Lord.

In 2016, “Dialogue Journal” published research that suggested that suicide rates among Utah teens doubled corresponding to an increased rhetoric by the LDS church against same sex marriage. The church’s increased media focus against same sex marriage came after policy changes were released in November 2015. The same article says that there are protective effects against suicide when people belong to a religious community and it’s no secret that LGBTQ+ people leave the church or are invited to leave at very high rates.

“It can thus be inferred that LGBTQ people are placed at higher risk when they feel unwelcome in their religious communities and end up losing the protection of religious involvement…it may seem counterintuitive that when individuals chose to leave their religion in order to experience more self-acceptance that they inadvertently experience more risk for suicide.”

I will acknowledge that individual views of the members and church culture are ever changing. This research is a decade old and perhaps the research would show something different now.

We are failing the LGBTQ+ community. They are leaving. They are dying. In a moment of tender vulnerability, queer member Charlie Bird said, “You are killing us.” We must do better. Christ is asking us to do better. Christ reached out to the marginalized and misunderstood. He gave them safety and community. Again, in Jeremiah:

3 I myself will gather the remnant of my flock out of all the countries where I have driven them and will bring them back to their pasture, where they will be fruitful and increase in number.

4 I will place shepherds over them who will tend them, and they will no longer be afraid or terrified, nor will any be missing,” declares the Lord.

I believe God—through us, through allyship—is the answer. Our queer members have much they can teach us about Christ-like love, acceptance, and patience. They are forced to cultivate these things within themselves simply because of who they are and the world they live in. The queer community has so much to teach us and we are missing out on their unique understanding of divine love. Jess Payne, creator and owner of Terra and Sage, once told me:

We will be tempted to ask, “How can I keep my queer loved ones in the church?” However, I think a more loving and appropriate question to ask is, “Is it safe for my queer loved ones to stay in the church?” For the queer loved ones in my life, the current church environment is not safe for them. I am being my best as an ally when I understand and help them enforce their boundaries. We miss the mark in forcing our loved ones OR ourselves into emotionally, and sometimes physically, unsafe places. Church is not for everyone.

While not all queer members will stay in the church, I believe Christ is asking us to cultivate safe places of worship for everyone. We do this best when we are a loving witness to one another’s stories. We do not need to fix or rescue anything or anyone. We do not need to judge or control or coerce anything. If you are unsure of how to create a safe space in your own church, Ben wrote a recent blog post with great advice:

If you really want to be an ally, go learn about LGBTQ+ members and talk to THEM. Ask your loved ones, “Can you tell me a bit more about what that has been like for you?” You’ll be amazed at what you can learn and how you can grow.

You’ll be amazed at the safety you can provide.

In Memoriam

This issue is dedicated to my friend, Care Hansen, who died by suicide in 2023.

Care, thank you for your example of boundless love and tenacity.

Want to learn more? Here are some of the author’s favorite resources to start (or continue) on your allyship journey:

1- Tender Leaves of Hope: Finding Belonging as LGBTQ Latter Day Saint Women by Meghan Decker

2- Queer Mormon Theology by Blaire Ostler

3- A Walk in My Shoes: Questions I’m Often Asked as a Gay Latter Day Saint by Ben Schilaty

4- Without the Mask: Coming Out and Coming into God’s Light by Charlie Bird

5- Tabernacles of Clay: Sexuality and Gender in Modern Mormonism by Taylor Petrey

6- Gay Rights and the Mormon Church: Intended Actions, Unintended Consequences by Greg Prince

7- Listen, Learn, and Love: Embracing LGBTQ Latter Day Saints by Richard Ostler

8- That We May Be One: A Gay Mormon’s Perspective on Faith and Family by Thomas Christofferson

Need an audio format? These podcasts are great:

1- All Out In the Open (formally Questions from the Closet) by Ben Schilaty and Charlie Bird

2- Lift and Love by Allison Dayton

3- Listen, Learn and Love by Richard Ostler

4- Called to Queer by Collene Dalton and Kate Mower

Want to lend support? Here are some great organizations that are mostly Utah based:

1- Raynbow Collective

2- Color the Campus

3- Cougar Pride Center

4- Encircle

5- Equality Utah

6- The OUT Foundation

7- The Trevor Project

The ALSSI community keeps growing, thanks to your support. Please keep spreading the word! Be sure to check out our chat community—a benefit of your paid subscription. If you have something to say, send us a voicemail, start a thread…or send us a piece for a future Say More!

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What would a generative day—one that might throw off energy into the rest of your life—look like? In Episode 266, Susan and Cynthia take on the concept of Sabbath. It’s a conversation about abundance, rhythm, letting go, and what it means to rest. Also about not needing to earn or prove anything,
liberation, eradicating oppression, and some of the ways Latter-day Saints may
think too narrowly when approaching this expansive idea.

Notes & Quotes:

4th Commandment: Remember the Sabbath, The Bible Project podcast, The 10 Commandments | Episode 7, 5/4/2026
The Gospel Economy, Center for Action and Contemplation, 11/24/2019
Our Unforming: De-Westernizing Spiritual Formation, by Cindy S. Lee
Sabbath as Resistance: Saying No to the Culture of Now, by Walter Brueggemann
How the Bible Actually Works: In Which I Explain How An Ancient, Ambiguous, and Diverse Book Leads Us to Wisdom Rather Than Answers―and Why That’s Great News, by Peter Enns
Finding Freedom Through Sabbath Resistance, by Ruth Haley Barton, Transforming Center
Liberation Keeps the Sabbath Holy (A Homily), by David Roberts, Patheos, 10/21/2016
You Need to Be Bored. Here’s Why., by Arthur C. Brooks, Harvard Business Review, 10/28/2025
A Sermon On No Time to Rest And Also No Jetpacks, by Nadia Bolz-Weber, Patheos, 10/20/2015
The Sabbath is a Delight, by Russell M. Nelson, 4/2015
The Power of Ideas: Words of Faith and Wisdom, by Jonathan Sacks
How to Be Here: A Guide to Creating a Life Worth Living, by Rob Bell
Dark Night of the Soul | St. John of the Cross, translated by Mirabai Starr

“Capitalism…is based on quid pro quo, reward and punishment thinking, and a retributive notion of justice. This much service or this much product requires this much payment or this much reward. It soon becomes the entire (and I do mean entire!) frame for all of life, our fundamental relationships (even marriage and children), basic self-image (“I deserve; you owe me; or I will be good and generous if it helps me, too”), and a faulty foundation for our relationship with God.” —Richard Rohr

“We cannot rest well unless we unform our distorted practices of work. We also cannot truly find rest as individuals until all in the community can also find rest. In the Old Testament Scriptures, the commandment to keep the Sabbath was not just an order to rest. Rather, the Sabbath establishes a liberative spiritual practice to address our unjust and unethical systems of work.” —Cindy S. Lee

“The fourth commandment is the most difficult and the most urgent of the commandments in our society . . . because it defies the most elemental requirements of a commodity-propelled society specializing in control and entertainment, bread and circuses . . . along with anxiety and violence.” —Walter Brueggeman

“Laws don’t stand still for long.” —Peter Enns

“By instituting the sabbath, God intervened in human history to make right something that had gone terribly wrong and re-established a pattern present in creation that had been tragically lost. In the Exodus narrative, the God who is free to rest on the seventh day is calling the people God loves to participate in his freedom by embedding it in their national identity.” —Ruth Haley Barton

“Jesus … defines the Sabbath through the lens of liberation, the liberating center of our lives by which we should define all our other days. In other words, he doesn’t want the Sabbath to just be part of our week. He wants it to be part of us.
Jesus isn’t afraid of work creeping into the Sabbath. He’s afraid of the Sabbath never creeping into our daily work.” —David Roberts

“A Harvard Business School survey showed that professionals spend on average almost 90 hours a week ‘on work,’ either at work, actively monitoring work out of the office or remaining accessible at a moment’s notice for work purposes.
It’s exhausting to the human spirit and makes it difficult to practice the Sabbath and without Sabbath rest, it becomes hard to see our true identity isn’t in what we do and what we produce, but in how much we are loved by God; that our worth isn’t in our successes and accomplishments but in our belovedness.” —David Roberts

“If you aren’t resting, you are a slave to something.” —Adele Calhoun

“Let’s contrast this “meritocracy,” punishment/reward economy—basic capitalism which we in the United States all drink in with our mother’s milk—with what Jesus presents, which I’m going to call a gift economy. In a gift economy, there is no equivalence between what we give and how much we get. Now I know we’re all squirming. We don’t like it, because we feel we’ve worked hard to get to our wonderful middle-class positions or wherever we are. [...] But until we begin to live in the kingdom of God instead of the kingdoms of this world, we think, as most Christians do, exactly like the world. We like the world of seemingly logical equations. Basically, to understand the Gospel in its purity and in its transformative power, we have to stop counting, measuring, and weighing. We have to stop saying “I deserve” and deciding who does not deserve. None of us “deserve”! Can we do that? It’s pretty hard . . . unless we’ve experienced infinite mercy and realize that it’s all a gift.” —Richard Rohr

“When we add ‘get more rest and take Sabbath seriously’ to our to-do list, we might be tempted to think of it as nothing more than a scheme to fuel us back up just so we can do more work; after all, it is our work that is so very important since that’s the thing that justifies our existence. And the world really needs us. But the wise Rabbi Abraham Heschel reminds us that Sabbath rest is actually about stopping long enough to see that God’s redeeming work in the world goes on with or without us.” —Nadia Bolz-Weber

“In letting go, we acknowledge what we can't do—and what we need God to do. Rabbi Abraham Heschel writes, ‘Rest on the Sabbath as if all your work were done.' Rest is knowing we've done what we could do this week, and now we need to receive grace. Rest is the center and heart of our work because it acknowledges that in the end, no matter how hard we work, we continue to be dependent on the grace of God.” —Cindy S. Lee

“Not pursuing your ‘own pleasure’ on the Sabbath requires self-discipline. You may have to deny yourself of something you might like. If you choose to delight yourself in the Lord, you will not permit yourself to treat it as any other day. Routine and recreational activities can be done some other time.” —Russell M Nelson

“The issue is not that people aren't taking their faith seriously; they're just exhausted. An event-based church, dependent on attending programs and volunteering, becomes just another job to juggle with our work lives and family responsibilities. The rhythms of the church don't match the rhythms of people's lives. Churches aren't known as places of rest; instead, we are just as busy in the church as we are at work. People burning out from never-ending church events indicates there is something seriously wrong with our understanding of Sabbath.” —Cindy S. Lee

“In Judaism we have the Sabbath, a dedicated day of stillness each week, where we make space for all the things that are important but not urgent. Not every culture has a Sabbath, but life without dedicated time for renewal, like a life without exercise or music or a sense of humour, is a lesser life.” —Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks, (pp. 122-3)

“In the Scriptures, work and rest are not opposites. Together, they create a cyclical rhythm, a continual embodied movement of unforming and re-forming. As we enter into rest, we unform through practices of letting go. We then experience a holy rest through the practice of stopping. When it is time to work again, we carry our holy rest into our work. Rest is the center of this rhythm, and work flows in and out of our rest.” —Cindy S. Lee

“I myself have only 2 speeds: go and stop. But when I stop it’s not like I’m resting, I’m just collapsing because I can’t go anymore. And I don’t think that’s what sacred rest means. I think that maybe we’ve made an idol of multi-tasking and hyper-activity.” —Nadia Bolz-Weber

“Sabbath forces you to listen to your life. Sabbath is a day when you are fully present to your pain, your stress, your worry, your fear. Sabbath is when you let whatever you’ve pushed down rise to the surface. Sabbath is a day when things that are broken get fixed, when things within you that have torn are mended.” —Rob Bell, (p. 172)

“It is an initially reluctant dropping down into the emptiness and an ultimate experience of peace when we stop doing and rediscover simple being. It is the Sabbath of the soul when we heed the call to cease creating and remember that we are Created.” —Mirabai Starr, (Intro)

“When we spend a day being fully present, we quickly discover how much of the rest of our lives we aren’t fully present.” —Rob Bell (p. 169)

“The rest of the Shepherd who makes you lay down in green pastures is not about time off from work, it’s about time off from all forms of worthiness. … Sacred rest is a break from the am-I-productive-enough, lovable enough, safe enough, thin enough, rich enough, strong enough-worthiness system we live under. The sacred rest that is yours never comes from being worthy. It never comes through adopting the right kind and the right amount and the right quality of spiritual practices (although if those bring you a sense of well-being then by all means don’t set them aside) the rest that is yours and mine comes from the promise of the Gospel: that Jesus came to save sinners, that Jesus came to heal and love and save the sin-sick and the over-functioning, that Jesus came to give rest to the weary, and the restless, to give rest to harried housewives and overworked social workers and mildly depressed executives. So rest. Resting knowing that you are justified, not by your busyness, but by grace through faith. Rest in the knowledge of how madly God loves you. Not because of who you are, but because of who God is. Rest in that. Not because you should. But because you can.” —Nadia Bolz-Weber

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Hello!

We’re sliding toward the end of Season 11, and we hope you’ve enjoyed our discussions about Big Ideas. Our summer break will arrive just in time to give you an opportunity to pick up any episodes you missed! We’re looking forward to some down time to refuel and plan our next moves. If you’re wondering whether there will be a Season 12 … the answer is yes! No precise date yet for when regular episodes resume, but watch this space for updates and bonuses over the summer.

In the meantime, here are a few items to keep in mind—

Upcoming:

6/2 Ep. 266: Big Ideas | Sabbath—No matter how you mark the day (or don’t), we hope you’ll enjoy exploring this concept with us!

6/4 Say More | Blakelee Edition

6/9 Ep. 267: What Do You Say | Listener Edition 4

6/11 Worthy Stuff | Susan Edition

6/12 Friday Live Chat | 10:00 am Mtn

6/16 Ep. 268: Season 11 Wrap | We’ll revisit a few of this season’s episodes and ideas … in conversation with some of you!

6/18 Say More: At Last She Writes It | 2

6/19 Friday Live Chat | 10:00 am Mtn

6/25 ALSSI News

Looking ahead:

7/10 Friday Live Chat | 10:00 Mtn

7/16 ALSRI Book Club, 7:00 pm Mtn

7/21 ALSSI Live Event, Salt Lake City 🥳

One more shout-out for our Substack Chat:

What’s our Substack chat? It’s a dedicated conversation space for paid subscribers—full of amazing ALSSIers—where we talk about everything. Our chat is available 24/7! We’d love to add you to the group—you can find info about subscribing here. (A paid subscription is also a great way to support the podcast!)

Two Fridays per month, we host a Live Chat on Zoom. We talk about episodes and/or other timely topics. These conversations are recorded for chat members to enjoy later if you’re unable to join us.

Questions?
Want the community, but can’t afford to subscribe?
Send us an email at atlastshesaidit@gmail.com and Katie will hook you up, no explanations required!

Now … about that Live Event—

This time we’re planning something a little different from our previous events—C & S will do some of the talking, but mostly we want everyone to come prepared for an evening of cake and conversation! There’ll be plenty of time for catching up with old friends and making new ones (hint: we’ll be playing What Do You Say).

Watch for registration info to hit your inbox about 2 weeks from now.

And what about At Last She Read It?

Our summer book club meeting will be here before you know it! Attendees voted at the last meeting, and Lilith, by Nikki Marmery, is our next selection for July’s discussion.

From Goodreads: “Lilith is the story of the first woman, who was expelled from Paradise for disobedience. In this retelling of the Hebrew myth that justified and explained woman’s subjection to man, Lilith will have her revenge—however long it takes. In the Garden of Eden, at the beginning of time, an outrageous lie is born: that women are inferior.”

Whether or not you get a chance to read the book, we hope you’ll plan to join us for the conversation!

Many thanks!

We asked for donations, and you came through! No surprise—this community rocks!—but as always we’re humbled by the generous response. A thousand thanks for every form of support you provide the ALSSI project. We hope we return the favor by providing something you need, whether through the podcast, the voices of Say More, or the online conversations.

Happy Summer!

Warmly—or hotly, depending on where this finds you, ☀️
Cynthia, Susan,
and the ALSSI Team

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Vocation at its deepest level is “something I can’t not do, for reasons I’m unable to explain to anyone else and don’t fully understand myself, but are nonetheless compelling.” This description from Parker Palmer frames the journey of chaplain Jenny Richards. She says, “If there is an openness to life, then I think vocation is where we meet our desires and our love of God. They meet, and if I think it’s something I can’t not do, that’s very compelling. And it’s terrifying.” In Episode 265, Jenny joins Cynthia and Susan for a conversation about the remarkable path she’s walking, and how she came to be on it.

Notes & Quotes:

Clinical Pastoral Education (CPE) in Utah: https://www.ecsutah.org/aboutcpe
Traveling Mercies: Some Thoughts on Faith, by Anne Lamott
Let Your Life Speak: Listening for the Voice of Vocation, by Parker J. Palmer
This is Why I Find Pema Chodron So Essential, Pema Chodron with Ezra Klein, The Ezra Klein Show
Women’s Uncommon Prayers: Our Lives Revealed, Nurtured, Celebrated, by Elizabeth Geitz

"My coming to faith did not start with a leap but rather a series of staggers from what seemed like one safe place to another. Like lily pads, round and green, these places summoned and then held me up while I grew. Each prepared me for the next leaf on which I would land, and in this way I moved across the swamp of doubt and fear.” —Anne Lamott

“Before I can tell my life what I want to do with it, I must listen to my life telling me who I am.” —Parker Palmer

Vocation at its deepest level is, "This is something I can't not do, for reasons I'm unable to explain to anyone else and don't fully understand myself but that are nonetheless compelling.” —Parker Palmer

Power
“When she learned that she
Didn’t have to plug into
Someone or something
Like a toaster into a wall

When she learned that she
Was a windmill and had only
To raise her arms
To catch the universal whisper
And turn
turn
turn

She moved.

Oh, she moved.
And her dance was a marvel.”
—Carol Lynn Pearson

For Women
Eternal Spirit, Earth-maker, Pain-bearer, Life-giver, Source of all that is and that shall be, Father and Mother of us all, Loving God, in whom is heaven: Awaken us with your Holy Spirit,
and preserve us from the temptation to stay comfortably asleep;
encourage us to proclaim our authenticity,
and preserve us from a false accommodation to the world;
breathe into us your breath of life, stir us up into activity,
and preserve us from the inertia that leads to complicity in our own
oppression;
open our eyes to the promises in creation, open our hearts to the love and example of Jesus, open our ears to the persistent whisperings of the Holy Spirit, and preserve us from a sense-deadened existence;
give us the confidence to engage technology
and preserve us from regarding it with fear or with too much trust;
remind us that we are made in your image, that we, too, are creators, lovers, decision makers;
instill in us the pride of our heritage,
and preserve us from excessive, crippling humility.
Above all, gracious God,
give us the grace to hear your word to us and the courage to claim and act on that inner authority; preserve us from the tyranny of the external authority that comes from the world.
Amen.
—The Reverend Margaret Cunningham (from A New Zealand prayer book)

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Many thanks to listener Annie Colón for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app or can be listened to here on our website as well. All the notes and resources we cited in the episode are found at this link as well:

Listen to Episode 265

JR: I also want to just include that when we spoke of the divine rescuer, I felt like I was hitting the limits of what was possible within our faith tradition. This call to chaplaincy has also opened this ability that is rare for a woman in the church to offer spiritual counsel to men. And as a chaplain, there is this sense of anonymity.

I’m not a therapist that’s going to follow up with further visits, and I’m not clergy, but I’m someone that can represent a spiritual authority and a space in which men and women have both confessed and had me hold space with them in their existential worries and fears. And LDS men, non-LDS men, men of no faith, I have encountered all of these types of individuals that need a spiritual authority to talk them through things.

And that’s a rare opportunity for an LDS woman.

SH: Hello, I’m Susan Hinkley.

CW: And I’m Cynthia Winward.

SH: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things, and the title of today’s episode is Let Your Life Speak, a conversation with Jenny Richards. Hello, Jenny.

JR: Hi, Susan and Cynthia.

CW: Welcome. We’re so glad to have you.

JR: Thank you.

SH: Yeah, we’re pretty excited for this conversation, and our listeners are soon going to understand why we are so excited because it’s gonna be awesome.

CW: Yes. Yes.

SH: But we want to start by letting you take a minute or two just to give us a little introduction, maybe something to give some context to why we’re having this conversation today and let our listeners know anything about yourself that you would like them to know.

JR: All right. Well, thank you for having me on. I have been an avid listener for all six years.

CW: Wow.

JR: And you’ve been companions along my own journey, which we’ll talk about a little bit today. So I am coming to you from the hub, Salt Lake City. And I am currently a hospital chaplain intern, and we’ll talk a little bit about the road that has led me there.

But I grew up right here in Salt Lake. My musical pursuits held me for my first half of life. I did an undergrad and a master’s at Juilliard in piano.

SH: Wow.

JR: I married my high school sweetheart, and we moved to New York to start our marriage, which is highly recommended. We have lived on the East Coast for about 13 years as he was doing medical school and residency, and I was keeping the lights on, teaching piano, and playing gigs.

We have four kids. We have two sons, two daughters, exceptional humans, all on their own journeys.

And I would say that there are moments in life that open you up to new understanding, new direction, and expansion of faith. And I’ve had several of those that we can talk about. But, I continue to pursue greater knowledge, greater understanding.

I went back to school and got a master’s in Theological Studies at the Franciscan School of Theology. and in a crazy pivot, I am about to start at Duke Divinity School this fall-

SH: Wow!

JR: for an M.Div. So, life is so weird. Maybe the last thing I’ll say in an introduction is I really have this obsession with inflatable dinosaur costumes.

And any chance, any chance I have to either wear one or encourage my loved ones to wear one, it is the ultimate source of joy in my life.

CW: This just gives me the best visual in my head right now of -

SH: That’s pretty good.

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Spiritual Blocks

by Mary Cox

the audio included with this piece is a direct audio recording from when the talk was given

The last time I spoke in church, I talked about how

I was rebuilding my spiritual tower. Some might call that deconstruction. Some might call that faith expansion. Some might call is a faith journey or a faith crisis. Whatever you want to call it is up to you. I call it my spiritual tower. Since then, I have been listening to my heart and depending not on certainty, but on agency and trust in my own relationship with my God Parents. I’ve had the gift of using doubt as a guide and defining faith as flexible. The process of rebuilding my spiritual tower is a journey that is messy, complicated, frustrating, but it’s also so, so beautiful. I want to talk about 4 of my 5 foundational blocks in my spiritual tower: mercy, grace, love, and Jesus. It’s all I really have, and it’s enough.

Because music means something to me and because it’s how I feel the God power inside of me, I’m going to use it today as I talk.

Bryan Stevenson, author of “Just Mercy” states that, “Mercy is not earned. Mercy is not passive. Mercy is necessary. Mercy begins with recognizing a shared humanity with every human on the earth.” That is the difficult part, isn’t it?

But mercy is only mercy without judgment attached to it in any way. As Bryan Stevenson says, “Each of us is more than the worst thing we’ve ever done.” Let mercy guide us as we strive to be with our fellow humans in “our one wild and precious life.”

I think we often misunderstand grace. Some might not even really believe that grace has the power to heal, the power to save. Grace is so powerful. Grace is an amazing gift from our God Parents that to me says, “We love you. We know this is complicated. We trust your path.” Like the song says, Grace is amazing. It covers our self-inflicted pain, when others hurt us, when we are burdened, and when our patterns of behavior harm others. Grace will lead us to a place where we can find ourselves, settle into presence, and breathe knowing we can keep moving forward. Grace tells us we are enough.

I could sing a thousand songs about love, but instead, I used my voice to write a poem…

In Jesus’ own words: “Love the Lord, your God, with all your heart… AND Love your neighbor as yourself.”

This scripture really has three parts. The first is to love our God Parents—they don’t require our love to be ok—they don’t NEED us to do that. This makes it so much easier to practice love by loving them and it’s such a gift. Figure it out on us, they said—we can take the messiness and the complicated parts. We won’t be hurt by any love you can or can’t show. Try on love. Give love. Practice love. In my mind, the practice of this love is to teach us how to do the next part of the commandment—love your neighbor.

Honestly, we aren’t really doing this well as a whole of society. We just aren’t. I think it’s because we truly fail to SEE our neighbor. But if we, as members of this church, believe our own stuff, it shouldn’t be that tricky. It’s pretty clear, “ALL are alike unto God—black and white, bond and free, male and female; Jew and Gentile.” There is nothing I can say here today that can persuade you to look at that scripture, “ALL are alike unto God,” add the “love your neighbor” part, and simply—do better. Love for your neighbor, whomever that may be, has to come from YOUR soul, YOUR heart.

The third part is “as yourself.” We never talk about this part. We skip over it as though it’s not a vital part of the commandment. WHY? You matter to our God Parents. You need to matter to yourself. I have myself as part of the 5 blocks of my spiritual tower. How can we really build the types of relationships we need here on earth without first recognizing the importance of ourselves? I choose to love myself as messy, complicated, doubtful, uncertain, worthy, and enough. I believe it might be too difficult to love your God Parents and your neighbors if you don’t love yourself first.

I just don’t think Jesus asks us to hustle for our worth or hustle for love. “Come unto me. Learn of me. Rest in me,” He said. That’s His request—without hustle. He also doesn’t require perfection of any sort, nor is there a demand to be happy. Weary, worn, and sad, it says—Jesus wants us that way too. It’s enough for Him.

Here are a couple of questions to ponder: Does your spiritual tower have enough blocks? What might be missing? Does your tower have too many blocks? Are there blocks that don’t really belong to you—that might have been borrowed from your childhood or a parent? What if you gave yourself permission to use your full agency and truly listen to your heart—could you remove a block or two that was no longer part of your belief system or might actually be harming you? If you looked at faith as flexible and at certainty as not necessary, could you move a few of the blocks around, rename a few, and rebuild a foundation that felt more sure and sturdy for you?

I believe that building your spiritual tower is not something that is ever a finished product. We don’t have that kind of control over our lives. And honestly, the gift of agency tells us that we will have the privilege of continuing to shift, change, and grow for eternity. Of course we will. Plants adapt to the weather. Animals rebuild homes in new habitats. Adult development in physical, psychological, and faith-based ways have stages that we will continue to move through for the rest of our lives. Change is natural. Growth is good.

I choose the block of mercy because mercy is how to truly see others. I choose to believe wholeheartedly in a grace that tells me I am enough. I choose love, because love is the answer. In love—I choose myself because I matter most. The block of Jesus is my example of how I actually do mercy, grace, and love in “my one wild and precious life.”**

**Editor’s note: Mary introduced us to her concept of a spiritual block tower in ALSSI Ep. 180, and those insightful words found their way into our permanent lexicon. If you missed this conversation, here’s a reminder to check it out. Thanks again, Mary! —S.

Different Paths

by Amy Call

Finding The Divine Outdoors in Nature

by Maddie Victoria

I had an experience on a trip to the Middle East

a few years ago. I often revisit that experience as I go through my faith journey and deconstruction. My experience is as follows.

I was in the Wadi Rum Desert in the country of Jordan with the warmth of the sun beating down on me, riding a camel as I was looking around and taking in the beauty of red sand and red peaks and cliffs that arose up around me. I felt that the same being that created these red rock cliffs, peaks and red sand is the same being that made me and took the time to provide me a world that I can explore and learn and grow in, and thrive in as the woman that I am. Even if it took me 20+ years to find myself as a woman. I learned that every experience, thought and question I have had shown me that I am enough and that I am worth it even if the world around me doesn’t think I am worth it because of who I am and the past life that I have lived.

Knowing that being in nature and outside is my sanctuary where I can commune with my Heavenly Mother and Heavenly Father is so healing to me. I see my Heavenly Parents more outside and in nature than I do in a brick-and-mortar building.

Nature and being outdoors ground me and connect me to the earth and the love that I have experienced time and time again as I open myself up to seek answers and guidance from my Heavenly Parents. They are patient with me when I don’t get it the first, second, third time, or however many times it takes me to realize what They are trying to tell me or show me. Sometimes all I need to do is look up and notice the beautiful world that is around me. Sometimes it is as simple as seeing the Northern Lights with my own eyes in the middle of the Salt Lake Valley.

Proverbs 3:5-6 is a verse of scripture that I hold near and dear to my heart:

I am more at peace with where I am as a person, and with my faith. I feel like my deconstruction from the Church will be an ongoing process since it is intertwined with me because of where I live in the world and that I was an all-in member for so long. It isn’t easy being a member of the church who is in a marginalized community. To be honest, it can be scary but all I have to do is look up and be willing to open myself to hear what I need to hear when I need to hear it.

Creativity and Worship—A Cancer Survivor’s Story

by Ruby Harris

When I was twelve, my parents woke me in the middle of the night

and told me through tears that my lab results were back: I had leukemia. We had to go to Primary Children’s hospital right away. My life turned upside down in an instant. My upcoming math test and band concert didn’t matter anymore. Now my only goal was to survive.

I was thrown into a world of procedures, pills, and waiting rooms. Chemotherapy was effective, but at a high cost. It took three years of my life and gave me a bone condition that made my ankle joints collapse. The year after I finished treatment I had four reparative ankle surgeries.

I’m 17 now and cancer free!! The effects of the chemo are long term, so I use a wheelchair when I’m out and about to minimize my chronic pain. I’m really happy with where I’m at now! I’m able to devote more energy to my art and spend more time with my loved ones, which has been a huge blessing. Over the years, I’ve turned to art again and again to find peace and healing from my struggles.

One of my spiritual gifts is visualization. In some of the darkest times in my life, comforting spiritual images came into my mind: me leaning on Christ to walk; Jesus washing my swollen scarred feet with His scarred hands. I treasured these revelations because they felt so personal and tailored to me. It was one of my favorite ways to “Hear Him.”

It wasn’t until this year that I understood them, however. I had just experienced some traumatic religious experiences and deep spiritual manipulation. The pain was excruciating and all consuming. I had numbed my spiritual intuition to “keep the peace” and I didn’t know how to get it back. I felt powerless and forgotten.

Then, I listened to a podcast episode about the Divine Feminine (by the In Her Image podcast, I highly recommend it). It changed my life. The world opened up to me and I finally felt free. Embracing Heavenly Mother helped me reclaim my agency. The day after I learned about Her, I started having beautiful images come to my mind multiple times a day, and they were all depicting Heavenly Mother. I realized that they weren’t how I “Hear Him” but actually how I “Hear Her.” I was so touched that even before I knew who She was, She was reaching out and comforting me. Now that I was aware of Her presence, I felt like She was calling me to create—so, I did.

It changed my life and how I worship. Art helped me to heal the deep spiritual wounds inflicted upon me. I drew Heavenly Mother’s comfort and support, and depicted Her in a variety of ways so that everyone could see themselves in Her. I try to push past beauty standards by showing the glory and divinity of an unfiltered body. Through this journey, I felt more of Her love and influence in my life. As I grow into a more independent phase of my life, I look forward to depicting that She is more than just someone to take care of children for eternity. She is a goddess.

Our Heavenly Parents are the ultimate creators. If we are truly to become like Them, then we must also learn to create. Parenthood is a beautiful way the gospel celebrates creation, but it can be so much broader than that. For those who aren’t in a parenting stage of their lives and for those who never will be, creation is still an option for them. I personally lean into this through painting, sketching, and singing, but there is no “right” way to be creative. You could garden, you could host events, you could write, you could fix cars, you could bake, you could sew, you could serve, you could connect, you could heal. Creativity is accessible to everyone. It is literally in our DNA.

I believe that all of those examples could bring someone closer to God. Intentionality in creation is what makes it a spiritual process, not the finished product. I incorporate this into my art practice through ritual. Every time I sit down to draw or paint something, I say a prayer that They will guide my hands. Then I put on my favorite lotion and my playlist of songs that remind me of the Divine Feminine. This has turned art-making into my favorite form of worship. Even the interests that we view as secular can be expanded and magnified if we invite God in.

I think that agency is a concept more similar to creativity than we realize. If we truly believe that our agency increases as we become more like our Heavenly Parents, then it has to be more than just choosing between the covenant path and the adversary. Creativity has been my favorite way to expand my agency. I get to make decisions that shape how my art comes into the world. It is incredibly empowering and has deepened confidence in myself and God.

Creativity is a beautiful form of expression, release, and growth. I know it can be intimidating at first, but I invite you to try out some form of spiritual creativity and just see how it goes. The quality of the finished product doesn’t matter nearly as much as how you feel making it. You could start out with coloring in a coloring book and your experience can be just as profound.

Heaven’s Lost and Found

by Carly Carter

The Powerful Influence of My Heavenly Mother

by Stephanie Snell Povey

One evening in the fall of 1996, I returned home

from the hospital having had another dilation and curettage (D&C) after losing my third baby in five years. Bravely I tried to resign myself to be happy and content with the two beautiful daughters my husband and I had been blessed with. Yet, I felt a constant sense there was one more child for us. Many doubts and negative thoughts ran through my mind during this period of time.

“I must not understand how to receive inspiration from God.”

“The spirit of my unborn child must not want to come to our family.”

And the most destructive of all,

“God is withholding this blessing because He doesn’t trust me with any more children!”

One particularly discouraging day after reading a conference talk about how Heavenly Father knows every burden and trial we will have to endure, I found myself saying right out loud, “How can Heavenly Father really understand what I’m going through? He is a man and has never gone through this!” My sharpness shocked me! Did those blasphemous words really come out of my mouth? I felt guilty about my thoughts and unworthy to pray.

A few days later a friend and her husband came to see me and bring a meal. We visited for a while, then as they prepared to leave, they asked if I would like a blessing?

I don’t recall everything that was said in that blessing, but a powerful promise was given that changed my life. “Rest assured your Heavenly Parents are aware of you and your Heavenly Mother understands what you are going through.” Immediately I knew this was exactly what I needed to hear, and the spirit witnessed to me, “I have a Heavenly Mother and I am created in Her image. She understands everything I will ever go through!”

The veil thinned that day and my mind expanded. “Could it be,” I pondered, “that throughout the course of my many life experiences—as a confused nine year old girl, a discouraged teenage young woman, a homesick sister missionary, and a sometimes overwhelmed wife and mother—that the strength, inspiration and comfort came from both of my Heavenly Parents?”

The answer is YES!

The fact that we do not pray to Mother in Heaven in no way discredits Her position. Just as adoring and appreciating Her is in no way diminishing the love and appreciation I feel for my Father in Heaven.

As I have studied and prayed, I can only conclude that God consists of an exalted man and an exalted woman.

We have learned things about God our Eternal Mother, but there is still so much to know.

Questions such as:

• Why don’t we hear more about Mother in Heaven from our current leaders?

• Am I alone in my yearning for more understanding of the Divine Feminine?

President Russell M. Nelson has stated that the restoration has only begun and that it is our responsibility to receive revelation and guidance for our lives. This leads me to believe that as we long to know more of our glorious Mother in Heaven, ancient knowledge will be returned and restored to us.

Great peace comes to me when I pray daily, always addressing God the Father, yet visualizing both of my Heavenly Parents listening to me as I kneel before Them and pour out my heart. These are among the most insightful conversations imaginable.

I must not let feelings of doubt, inferiority or inequality discourage me. Great hope and encouragement come when I remember who I am and where I came from. Heavenly Mother is a goddess and a priestess. She is a perfect, glorified being and I am Her apprentice. My greatest aspiration is to become like Her someday.

I was correct in sensing there was one more child to join our family. In 1999 in a miraculous way, I gave birth to our youngest daughter. My earthly parents were serving a mission in the Philippines at the time and were not able to be with me, but I felt the presence of my Heavenly Parents and especially my Mother in Heaven.

I know my Heavenly Mother lives. What comfort this knowledge gives.

Say More: At Last She Writes It is thrilled to continue a series called, “Faith in Focus: ADHD and the Mormon Mind,” by Brittney Walker.

This series explores how ADHD shapes the faith experience for women raised in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, from the early moralization of difference, to the exhaustion of trying to measure up, to the courage of rebuilding identity after leaving. Each essay stands alone but together they trace the arc from misunderstanding to self-understanding.

The goal isn’t to critique the church, but to name what so many women feel but can’t articulate: that our struggles aren’t spiritual defects. They are neurological differences met with impossible expectations.

The following essay, “Rebuilding with a Different Brain” is the fourth and final installment of the series. Many thanks to Brittney for her time and generosity in allowing ALSSI to publish this series

Rebuilding with a Different Brain

by Brittney Walker

For a while, I was living two lives at the same time.

I wasn’t intending to deceive. I had started building a new life while the old life was still running in the background … fully operational, demanding everything it had always demanded. New job, new thinking, ideas I had been quietly circling for years. Coexisting with the old.

I didn’t notice it at first. I was too busy. New versions of myself I was tentatively trying on. The way you try on something in a dressing room and keep the tags on, just in case.

But underneath all of that, I was aiming for Perfect Mormon Mother. Perfect Wife. Supportive Friend. Still showing up to every obligation. Managing every expectation. Performing every role that had been assigned to me before I ever asked myself whether I wanted any of it. Nobody asked me to keep doing it. I just kept doing it. Dropping it would mean something. If I couldn’t do it all, there was a ready explanation waiting. I didn’t have the Spirit anymore. I was being led away. I had turned my back on God. The dropped ball. The exhaustion. The dinner I failed to make. Those would be the evidence.

So I didn’t drop anything.

I just ran faster.

Always out of breath. Always behind. Standing in front of a wall of arrows pointing in every direction at once. Knowing I needed to move but unable to choose because I needed to do all of them simultaneously. I performed my way through the days and collapsed at night. Performed. Collapsed. Performed. Collapsed.

It took me a long time to understand what was actually happening. Not a faith crisis. Not even an ADHD crisis.

A cognitive load crisis.

Here is something nobody tells you when you start loosening your grip on belief, whether you leave the church entirely or simply begin doing the quiet internal work of separating what’s yours from what was handed to you:

The structure was doing more work than you knew.

Not just the Wednesday night activities, or the Sunday schedule. Or the calling that filled your calendar and gave you a clear answer for what a good person does with her time. All of that, yes. But also something more fundamental. Something that was running so deep you couldn’t see it until it started to disappear.

The church was running your executive function.

The prefrontal cortex (PFC) handles those when the church doesn’t. Decisions. Direction. Identity. It answers the questions that feel small but aren’t: what do I do next, what matters here, who am I in this moment, what does a good life look like. Every human gets a limited amount of juice to their PFC each day. We spend it and then it’s gone, and the next day we start again.

Inside a high-demand religious system, enormous amounts of that work are already done for you before you wake up. Your identity is handed to you. Your schedule. Your values have been ranked. Your future is mapped out. The decisions that remain are small, because the architecture of your life has already been decided.

This isn’t a small thing. It’s an enormous cognitive gift, even when it comes wrapped in control.

When that system loosens, when you start questioning, leaving, or simply deciding to take what works and release what doesn’t, all of that outsourced cognitive work suddenly comes home. The decisions that were already made are now unmade. The schedule that had a shape has to be rebuilt from scratch.

And most of us have no idea that this transfer is happening.

We just know we’re exhausted. Frozen. Unable to move forward in ways that feel disproportionate to what’s actually in front of us. We stare at an ordinary decision and feel paralyzed. We have more freedom than we’ve ever had and less ability to use it than we expected.

We think something is wrong with us.

Nothing is wrong with us.

We are simply running a cognitive load we were never trained to carry. For the first time. Without warning.

For those of us with ADHD, this hits harder.

ADHD is, at its core, an executive function condition. It affects initiation, prioritization, working memory, follow-through. All the systems that generate structure from the inside. The systems that build direction out of nothing. When you have ADHD and you also grew up inside a religious structure that was doing all of this work for you, you probably made it to adulthood without ever fully developing those muscles. The external structure compensated. You showed up. You performed. You even thrived. Because the scaffolding was already there.

And then the scaffolding was gone.

This is the part that goes unnamed in almost every conversation about leaving. The grief, yes. People talk about the grief. The community, the future you thought you were building. That loss is real and it deserves the space it takes up. But underneath it, quieter and more confusing, is this:

You’re the one running it now. You’ve never done it before.

And you don’t know how yet.

That’s not failure. It’s not evidence that leaving was wrong, or that you should go back. It’s a skills gap. A structural one. It has a name and it has a solution and it is not a reflection of your character or your potential.

The scaffolding can be rebuilt.

Not the old scaffolding. Not the borrowed structure that belonged to a system. The version of yourself you were handed before you knew you got a choice.

New scaffolding. Built around you.

When I started learning about this, really learning, not just trying harder, I understood for the first time why every productivity system I had ever tried eventually fell apart. The Franklin Covey binder. The hour-by-hour planner. The Notion dashboard I built with color-coded categories and sub-pages and a view for everything. I would set them up with enormous relief, that feeling of finally having it together, and then stop using them within two weeks (*ahem,* hours).

I thought the problem was discipline. It wasn’t.

The problem was that those systems were designed for a different nervous system. They assumed consistent energy. Linear motivation. The ability to hold a routine steady across days that don’t feel the same. Bodies that don’t feel the same. Circumstances that shift.

My brain doesn’t work that way. Maybe yours doesn’t either.

What actually works, what I have watched work in my own life and in the lives of people I work with, is scaffolding that starts with the body instead of the calendar. Small structures. Sensory cues. Short time containers that reduce ambiguity without requiring endurance. Environmental reminders instead of memory. Relational support instead of isolation and willpower.

The specifics matter less than the principle. Scaffolding is external support that carries cognitive load so your brain doesn’t have to. And this time, unlike the last time, you get to decide what it looks like.

You get to build it around the brain you actually have. The actual, specific brain that’s in your head. Not the one someone else says you should have.

There will be grief in this process. Sometimes people expect the practical part to feel purely practical, and then the grief shows up and it’s disorienting.

You are allowed to grieve the community. The version of yourself who knew who she was without having to figure it out. You are allowed to grieve the simplicity. Even when the simplicity was coercive. Both things are true simultaneously, the harm and the loss, and you don’t have to choose which one to feel.

But grief is not the end of the story.

After the grief, there is something most people didn’t expect: a life that actually fits. Relationships that don’t require you to be smaller. Time that belongs to you. A structure built around your actual values and your actual brain. Not inherited. Not imposed. Not conditional on whether you show up correctly.

That’s not nothing.

For a lot of us, it’s the first time.

Contributors:

Mary Cox

I wear so many hats! My favorite one is the Mary Hat where I get to spend my time relearning about my Self without the lens of systemic expectation and obligation warping my view. I am a musician. I love that my music can be a bridge builder between human souls. I am the mother of four queer children whom I wholly love and I have learned so much from them. I just completed a Bachelor degree in Behavioral Health Sciences at 56, and I am so proud of myself. I live in Mesa, AZ with my amazing husband who is learning and shifting alongside me.

Amy Call

Maddie Victoria

I am an amateur wildlife photographer and I love outdoor activities.

Ruby Harris

I am a Christian artist and cancer survivor.

Carly Carter

I am a paraeducator, mother, and writer who has spent years navigating the tension between deep love for my LDS faith and the feeling of not fully belonging within it. My writing explores faith, identity, longing, and the pull to remain connected even while wrestling with difficult questions.

Stephanie Snell Povey

I am a firm believer that women and girls, men and boys should, without ridicule and shame, have the same rights and opportunities to learn, expand their talents and follow their passions. My best friend and partner for 42 years is husband Reed. Together we have three incredible daughters that have taught us so many things and brought us great joy. I am a lover of many activities, mostly of the outdoor nature, that involve moving my body and enjoying the sun.

I am a retired educator and author of the book, “You Can’t Play, You’re a Girl.” A memoir of my younger years before the passing of Title IX in 1972.

Above all, I am trying my best to be a disciple of Jesus and an apprentice to Divine Parents whom I aspire to become like some day.

Brittney Walker

I am an ADHD coach and writer living in Arizona with my husband and a lively household including six sons, a daughter-in-law, and a grandson. I spent many years trying to be reverent, organized, and less distracting, and now I write about executive function, faith, deconstruction, and rebuilding identity with a different kind of brain. My work explores neurodivergence, belonging, and the slow process of learning to trust yourself. You can find more of my writing at exmoadhdcoach.substack.com

Isn’t this a great space? We hope you’ll share ALSSI with anyone you think might benefit from our community. More voices, please!

Share At Last She Said It

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What do you think of when you hear the word ‘myth?’ You might use it to describe the opposite of what is real or factual, maybe a widely held but false belief. However, sacred narratives are also called myths—traditional or symbolic stories explaining the origin of the world, natural phenomena, or cultural customs. Most societies have their own creation myths, for instance. Sound familiar...maybe even like scripture? Yet it would be a profound shift for many Latter-day Saints to consider approaching our scriptures through a mythic lens. In Episode 264, Cynthia and Susan discuss some benefits of changing the way we think about scripture and how it can function to teach spiritual truths and deepen understanding of our human experience.

Notes & Quotes:

ALSSI Ep. 84: Do I Literally Have to Believe That? | A Conversation with Kajsa Berlin-Kaufusi
Where Justice, Love, and Mercy Meet, by Jeffrey R. Holland, 04/2015
Come, Follow Me, by Pres. Russell M. Nelson, 04/2019
Faith After Doubt: Why Your Beliefs Stopped Working and What to Do about It, by Brian D. McLaren
After 18 years living with cancer, a poet offers ‘Fifty Entries Against Despair’, Terry Gross with Christian Wiman, Fresh Air, NPR, 12/13/2023
Comedy Sex God, by Pete Holmes
The Bible Tells Me So: Why Defending Scripture Has Made Us Unable to Read It, by Peter Enns
The Power of Myth, by Joseph Campbell & Bill Moyers (Collaborator)
The Body of Christ, by Adam Miller, Times and Seasons, 10/16/2014
The Challenge of Honesty: Essays for Latter-day Saints, by Frances Lee Menlove
The Great Search: Turning to Earth & Soul in the Quest for Healing & Home, by John Philip Newell
How the Bible Actually Works: In Which I Explain How An Ancient, Ambiguous, and Diverse Book Leads Us to Wisdom Rather Than Answers—and Why That’s Great News, by Peter Enns
Why Most People Never Question Their Faith, by Britt Hartley, No Nonsense Spirituality
Why Nephi Killed Laban: Reflections on the Truth of the Book of Mormon, by Eugene England, Dialogue Journal, Vol. 22 No. 3
Interpreting Scripture, Center for Action and Contemplation, 12/24/2015
Inspired: Slaying Giants, Walking on Water, and Loving the Bible Again, by Rachel Held Evans

“...there was an actual Adam and Eve who fell from an actual Eden, with all the consequences that fall carried with it.” —Jeffrey R. Holland

“Adam and Eve, Noah and his wife, Abraham and Sarah, Lehi and Sariah, and all other devoted disciples of Jesus Christ—since the world was created—have made the same covenants with God. They have received the same ordinances that we as members of the Lord’s restored Church today have made: those covenants that we receive at baptism and in the temple.” —Russell M. Nelson

“I was a very loyal person, respectful of authority and always ready to give the benefit of the doubt to my tradition and its spokespeople. But over time, I not only lost confidence in many of the beliefs that gatekeepers required: I lost faith in the gatekeepers themselves and their whole system of using beliefs as markers of belonging. If I was going to be a person of faith, it couldn't be in a community that was obsessed with policing my beliefs. I needed a different understanding of faith entirely, as something beyond beliefs.” —Brian McLaren, (p. 123)

“Christianity has been afflicted with theology. It's a theological religion. And I think that's largely a mistake. I love theology, but I think most of what Christianity ought to be is a poetic religion. It teaches us a way and gives us models of experiencing the world and not directions for how to be in the world.” —Christian Wiman

“My whole religious life, if someone had told me the Bible was a myth, I would have wanted to punch him in the face … because myth had meant ‘not true.’ I think that’s still what it means to most of us.” —Pete Holmes, (p. 151)

“[Myth] is a perfectly fine word—as long as we remember ‘myth’ doesn’t mean ‘silly things we made up while on acid.’ Myths were stories that were part of ancient ways of describing ultimate reality, which is found not here and now but on a higher and more primal plane of existence.” —Peter Enns, (The Bible Tells Me So, p. 119)

“Mythology is not a lie, mythology is poetry, it is metaphorical. It has been well said that mythology is the penultimate truth--penultimate because the ultimate cannot be put into words. It is beyond words. Beyond images, beyond that bounding rim of the Buddhist Wheel of Becoming. Mythology pitches the mind beyond that rim, to what can be known but not told.” ―Joseph Campbell

“Don’t ask the thin question: ‘Is the Church true?’ Ask the thick question: ‘Is this the body of Christ?’ Is Christ manifest here? Is this thing alive? Does it bleed? This is a load-bearing question. This is a question properly fitted, by Christ himself, to address the existential burn that compels its asking….If your life itself depends on the question, then ask a question that is rich enough to cover the whole rich span of that (messy, unfinished, broken, vulnerable) life.” —Adam Miller

“[Faith] means fidelity to God, faithfulness to God—not to statements about God. I was impressed by an answer given by Steven Shields at a recent Sunstone Symposium when he was asked if he believed in the Book of Mormon. His reply embodied faith as fidelitas: ‘I don’t believe in any book. I believe in the God to whom the Book of Mormon points.’”—Frances Lee Menlove

“Moses’s encounter with the burning bush is not about content. It is about presence. Moses doesn’t come away from the experience with statements about God or with a name for God or a definition of the divine. Nor does he come away with divine prescriptions such as ‘You must do this” or ‘You must believe that.’ ‘The guiding counsel of God,’ says Buber, ‘is simply the divine Presence communicating itself directly to the pure in heart.’ Revelation does not consist of the dispensing of religious commandments from above that are to be etched forever into stone and followed meticulously. Rather, revelation consists of encounter, and ‘the Presence itself,’ says Buber, ‘acts as counsel.’ —John Philip Newell, (p. 57)

“If to believe in God means to be able to talk about God in the third person…then I do not believe in God. But if to believe in God means to be able to talk to God, then I do believe in God.” —Martin Buber, (quoted by John Philip Newell, p. 59)

“I still understand that seeing the Bible this way [as a book of wisdom] might cause some a bit of concern. I get it. After all, if the Bible is God’s word to us but isn’t clear and direct, what good is it? If we see the Bible as a book of wisdom that makes us figure things out rather than dispensing unambiguous divine instruction shaped for our eyes and ears, it may seem like we’re caving in to a ‘less than’ view of the Bible that isn’t of much practical use for anyone—a Plan B because Plan A unraveled. But again, nothing could be farther from the truth. Wisdom is Plan A.” —Peter Enns, (How the Bible Actually Works, pp. 38-39)

“Mystics don't take their texts as if that they are literal. These are just playgrounds and mirrors with which to play. And that's when the world opened up for me again…I could let go of having to claim truth. I just get to explore.” —Britt Hartley

“Myths are messy.” —Carmen Acevedo Butcher, CAC

“When I looked at [the story of Noah] with fresh eyes I thought, ‘oh my… this is a story of genocide where the entire human race is wiped out indiscriminately.’ ….Noah gets off the boat, invents alcohol to get drunk and passes out because he has such unbelievable survivor's guilt and PTSD over the whole thing. And then even God looks at the situation and says, ‘oof, that was a really bad mistake. I'm not going to do that again.’ I had been taught all these theological conundrums like people saying, ‘Does God change God's mind or not?’ Instead of realizing, no, this is a cautionary tale. When people say, ‘Why doesn't God punish the bad people?’ Well, this is what that would look like and it's an unmitigated disaster.” —Mike Petrow, CAC

“These mythological stories can inspire us, but they also can warn us, and it creates this mechanism for social learning.…we can pass on collective societal learning through these stories.” —Jennifer Tompos, CAC

“Or could it be (and this is what, finally, I believe myself) …as others have suggested, God was both teaching and helping Nephi to develop, through this Abrahamic test, into a servant and leader who could be obedient — but that God was also teaching Nephi (and us) the costs and limits of such obedience?” —Eugene England

“The New Testament was written in Greek—a language which Jesus did not understand—and was composed thirty to seventy years after Jesus’ death. We can conclude that the exact words of Jesus were apparently not that important for the Holy Spirit or for us. We have only a few snippets of Jesus’ actual words in his native Aramaic. This should keep us all humble and searching for our own experience of the Risen Christ instead of arguing over Greek verbs and tenses. Literalism is invariably the lowest and least level of meaning.” —Richard Rohr

“It is no more beneath God to speak to us using poetry, proverb, letters, and legend than it is for a mother to read storybooks to her daughter at bedtime. This is who God is. This is what God does.” —Rachel Held Evans

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Many thanks to listener Tara Larson for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app or can be listened to here on our website as well. All the notes and resources we cited in the episode are found at this link as well:

Listen to Episode 264

SH: A myth is like the advice that your elders are giving you around the fire, right?

CW: Mm, Nice.

SH: Myth is a thing that lays out a problem or a life experience for us, and then asks us to assign meaning to the parts of it, or to decipher how the wisdom of the story might apply to us. And how do we do that? Well, we do that by looking at our own experience.

SH: Hello, I’m Susan Hinckley.

CW: And I’m Cynthia Winward.

SH: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things, and the title of today’s episode is Big Ideas: Myth.

CW: We’re going there, Susan.

SH: I know. I’m so excited for this conversation.

CW: What? Oh my gosh, okay, you’re excited and I’m just nervous, like–-

SH: No, it’s gonna be great.

CW: Like nervous laughter, but I can only blame myself because I started the notes today, so I don’t know. And here’s why I’m nervous is, I don’t know. Like so many topics, how long have we been wanting to have this conversation?

SH: Right.

CW: And how many times do we just keep kicking that can down the road? I mean, and we’ve danced around it. Like, let’s go four, four years ago with Kaisa Berlin Kalfusie, episode 84-

SH: Right, right.

CW: Do I Literally Have to Believe That? So we have talked about, you know, literal versus metaphorical, but somehow bringing in the word myth and really dissecting that, I feel like I’m really punching above my weight, and I could be punching into, like, really tender spots for people. So I just kinda need to, needed to have that disclaimer right here.

Okay, here we go.

SH: Okay, but, you’re like a business major.

CW: Yes.

SH: And I’m, like, an English major married to another English major. Like, sometimes my husband actually, like, when we talk about New Year’s resolutions, he’ll say, “I haven’t read my Greek mythology for a while. I think I need to reread Greek mythology.” I mean, this is the house that I have.

CW: I’m so jealous of you two. So jealous.

SH: So I’m just saying that, like, some of your feelings as you approach that word, that big, small word, that big, little word, might be just because you’re not as comfortable in that realm maybe-

CW: 100%.

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May is here! Spring! Heat! Flowers! Leafy trees…

…and also…Mother’s Day. I found myself last weekend explaining to my daughters and their partners why it’s such a fraught holiday. I said, “I am fine if you want to celebrate me as an individual, like a second birthday, but I don’t need my mothering celebrated.” So for the rest of the weekend they’d say, “…

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In Episode 263, Cynthia and Susan ask Stephenie, Blakelee, and Tedi, What Do You Say? It's the fourth installment of ALSSI's conversations-about-everything with wise women. Three randomly selected questions about their memories, insights, and beliefs, are answered through stories of their personal lives and experiences as Latter-day Saints.

Notes & Quotes:

I Want to Be a Mother, Songs for a Mormon Child, by Janeen Jacobs Brady
Everything Belongs: The Gift of Contemplative Prayer, by Richard Rohr

“If the veil parts once and you know life is radically okay, then you are—to use the normal Christian language—a child of God. You are in union. There is nothing to prove. Nothing to attain. Everything is already there. It is simply a matter of recognizing and honoring and trusting.” —Richard Rohr, (p. 88 Kindle)

“I look for meaning, but as someone said, ‘If you understand it, things are just as they are. If you don’t understand it, things are just as they are.’ The mystery is to be ready to receive things just as they are and be ready to let them teach us.” —Richard Rohr, (p. 90 Kindle)

“Fear is a natural reaction to moving closer to the truth.” —Pema Chodron

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Many thanks to listener Sarah Thomas for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app or can be listened to here on our website as well. All the notes and resources we cited in the episode are found at this link as well:

Listen to Episode 263

TT: I didn’t wanna live that way anymore. So I got some help, and through a lot of therapy, we worked through that, and I have a totally different relationship with God now.

I would say I don’t fear Him anymore. I don’t fear the afterlife. It’s a whole different relationship. I kind of feel like it’s a whole different God that I believe in than the God I was raised to believe in.

SH: Hello, I’m Susan Hinkley.

CW: And I’m Cynthia Winward.

SH: And this is At Last She Said It. We are women of faith discussing complicated things, and the title of today’s episode is: What Do You Say? Three Conversations About Agency, Motherhood, Faith Crisis, Premonitions, and Creating God.

CW: Good grief. Bingo blackout right here.

SH: Bingo blackout on the title. Well, look, these are complicated conversations, Cynthia. They’re about lots of things.

CW: Well, we have three more amazing conversations today, so let’s listen to what our amazing guests had to say, and then we’ll come back for “Contemplation Corner.”

How’s that?

SH: Fantastic.

Segment 1: Conversation with Stephenie Glismyer

Okay, we are here with Stephenie Glismyer today. Hi, Stephanie.

SG: Hi.

SH: Our listeners might recognize your name because you sometimes write for Say More for us. We’ve had a few pieces of yours, I think.

SG: Yeah.

SH: Well, we’re excited to play with you today, and we’re gonna start with the memories category.

I have three questions for you to choose from. Would you like question one, two, or three?

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Last fall two seemingly innocuous events occurred in my life.

The first was having my own DNA tested. The second was reading Second-Class Saints: Black Mormons and the Struggle for Racial Equality by Matthew Harris. The entire priesthood and temple ban on those with African ancestry is a horrific part of Mormonism. To read in such detail about the racist teachings and policies crafted by LDS church leaders was enlightening and saddening, such as Brigham Young saying that any man who mingles with the ‘seed of Cain’ is “to come forward & have his head cut off & spill his Blood upon the ground”.1 Yikes!

One of those shocking bits of history talked about at great length in the book is the “one-drop rule.” The “one-drop rule” stipulated that any person with even a ‘drop’ of African blood was considered ‘negro’ and thus ineligible for priesthood ordination (if male) and temple rites (if female). I had known about the ‘one-drop rule’ before reading the book, but reading all the awful details about it broke my heart in ways I hadn’t expected.

While knee-deep in Second-Class Saints, I was thrilled to get my DNA results. I texted my kids the above graphic and said, “Look at me, I am a product of humanity!” I was so proud to learn that I am 20% Indigenous Mexican. (Thanks Mom!) I was equally proud to learn I was 26% Celtic/Gaelic (Thanks Dad!) Smaller parts of my DNA showed me to also be Spanish, Portuguese, Jewish, and African—4% African to be exact. Love it…thanks Mom!

Knowing that I had ‘four drops’ of African blood, I realized that my own parents’ temple marriage was against Church policy as my parents were married in 1971, seven years before the priesthood and temple ban ended.

Harris writes:

“But there was another fundamental flaw with the one-drop rule…you couldn’t tell whether someone had African ancestry simply by looking at them. In the nineteenth century, when Brigham Young and other Mormon leaders defined a “negro” as anyone having one drop of African lineage, there were no reliable ways to identify bloodlines. DNA tracing through the Human Genome Project was decades in the future, which made determining lineage imprecise and often wrong. All of this is to say that the one-drop rule underscored a brutal reality that neither Mormon leaders nor Americans in general could grasp. The racial boundaries they sought to enforce were built on fiction.”2

I had ‘four drops’ because my mother had ‘eight drops.’ Obviously my parents were married before DNA tests, but it left me wondering, would The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have scrapped the ‘one-drop rule’ had DNA tests been a possibility? Or would they have leaned harder into the rule had science made it easier to discriminate? So many questions!

At the time, some people (mainly in South Africa and Brazil) were required by the Church to trace their genealogy to prove they had no African ancestry. Or worse, some potential converts were assessed by a white missionary or other white church leader just by looking at them to see how dark they were. I have curly brown hair, brown eyes, and olive skin. But one of my sisters—sharing all the same DNA as my parents—has blonde hair, blue eyes, and light skin. I truly can’t imagine the humiliation of some white man staring at any of us to decide if we ‘pass’ as white.

Harris documents loads of stories about LDS members discovering they had African ancestry, but who ‘passed’ as white. Some looked like me, some like my sister. Sometimes church leaders looked the other way when they knew someone had African ancestry and sometimes they didn’t. Harris writes–

Over the years, [Church leaders] fielded numerous queries from Latter-day Saints who looked White but were classified as Black by the church….These sensitive cases always frustrated the Brethren because the individuals in question wanted to serve missions, marry in the temple, and hold the priesthood, but the church’s restrictive racial boundary made this difficult. The simplest answer was to get rid of the one-drop rule and cut through the bureaucratic gauze that prohibited full church participation. But the Brethren couldn’t see themselves changing decades of tradition. On at least three occasions in their council meetings the apostles discussed—and reaffirmed—that they would keep the one-drop rule.3

My mother and her family experienced plenty of racism as Mexican Latter-day Saints even though they were not required to prove their lineage upon baptism. In Mexico my family was specifically told by the missionaries that they were ‘Lamanite’, a group of people written about in the Book of Mormon, but also a cursed people according to scripture.

One of my mother’s sisters, Herlinda Briones Bowen, served a mission shortly after her baptism in the 1960s in western Mexico. She writes in her memoir about numerous racist experiences, things she overheard while working in the mission home in Hermosillo, Sonora. The mission president’s wife was having a conversation with a young male missionary who had finished his service and was going to be heading home to Arizona—

“While I was sorting some papers, the missionary casually stands by the Mission President’s wife seated at her desk, engaging her in lighthearted conversation. This being the last day of his mission, all smiles and cheerful demeanor, she turns towards him inquiring about his plans after completing such an important milestone in his life. Without preamble, the missionary launches on his number one goal…he intends to marry Sister T., a recently released Mexican lady missionary!...My emotional radar in full alert by now, I managed to keep my eyes on my work; the discussion was none of my concern and the conversation being in English, further removed me from any involvement. [Not everyone in the mission home knew Herlinda understood English]. Her smiling face and cheerful demeanor gone; the Mission President’s wife’s tone of voice changes accordingly in a mean-spirited lecture about the “disadvantages” of marrying a Mexican!” 4

The above encounter doesn’t even surprise me. I’ve heard and seen plenty of racism from Latter-day Saints towards Mexicans (and other Latinos) my entire life. In fact, I probably have witnessed more than my fair share because as a ‘white presenting’ woman (with an English last name, first Harrington, now Winward) other white Latter-day Saints feel safe in expressing their racist thoughts to me. Never having been one to stay silent, I always call them out on their racist comments and then witness a lot of back-peddling.

One last story from my family. In the late 1970s my dad was a deputy sheriff for San Bernardino county in California. He had an opportunity to work for the sheriff’s office in Springville, Utah. Before uprooting our family, my dad had the wherewithal to ask his future employer what the racism was like towards Latinos in a small town. The man was honest with my father and told him the racism would be significant in Utah. My dad, not wanting to subject his wife, my mother, to much more racism than she already had to bear, turned down the job and raised our family in southern California.

I grew up in the safety of that choice, ‘passing’ as white while the Church’s complicated racial past hummed quietly in my DNA. The history of racism—official and cultural—is a dark stain on The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. It is a history that once relied on the fiction of racial purity to determine eternal blessings. Today, as I look at my DNA results and my family photos, I am struck by the irony that the very thing the prophets and apostles once feared—the ‘mingling of races’—is exactly what makes me, well, me.

The ‘bureaucratic gauze’ may be gone, but the social scars for so many still remain. Whether on this side of 1978 or the other, my ‘four drops’ of African blood never made me or my family second-class saints, but a beautiful product of humanity and a child of God.

Cynthia Winward

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We all know change can be hard, but what about changing our own thinking? Can the discomfort associated with conflicting ideas keep us from fully engaging with them, or prevent us from objectively weighing data? Why does ‘putting it on the shelf’ sometimes feel like our only option? The human tendency to seek validation for existing beliefs is called Confirmation Bias. Religions and politics both depend on it; by naturally pursuing evidence that supports our current position, people maintain the conviction that “My team is the best.” In Episode 262, Cynthia and Susan discuss confirmation bias, and some of the ways it may function among church members. As Brian McLaren explains, “People only change their minds when the pain of not changing surpasses the pain of changing.”

Notes & Quotes:

Recognizing Our Biases: The Power of Confirmation Bias, Center for Action and Contemplation, 11/19/2025
What Is Confirmation Bias? | Psychological Explanation & Examples, MindfulThinks
Atlas of the Heart: Mapping Meaningful Connection and the Language of Human Experience, by Brené Brown
Falling Upward: A Spirituality for the Two Halves of Life, by Richard Rohr
Dancing Standing Still: Healing the World from a Place of Prayer, by Richard Rohr
A Mirrored Funhouse of Confirmation Bias: a sermon on Palm 27, by Nadia Bolz-Weber, The Corners, 3/17/2025
Why I Spent 90 Minutes Steaming an American Flag, by Nadia Bolz-Weber, The Corners, 4/13/2026
Coming Closer to Jesus Christ, by Dallin H. Oaks, BYU Speeches, 2/10/2026
Field Notes for the Wilderness: Practices for an Evolving Faith, by Sarah Bessey
Why Can’t We See?, Learning How to See with Brian McLaren podcast, Center for Action and Contemplation, 10/5/2020
Sermon on Seeing More Than Just What We Look For, by Nadia Bolz-Weber, Patheos, 1/16/2017

“You may have heard the old saying that people only change their minds when the pain of not changing surpasses the pain of changing. That old saying is all about confirmation bias.” —Brian McLaren

"We are willing to receive all truth, from whatever source it may come.” —Joseph F. Smith

“My brain has a lot going on, so it interprets hard work like this as pain….Wanting to save me from that extra reframing work, my brain presses a “reject” or “delete” button when a new idea presents itself. ‘I’ll stick with my current frame, thank you very much,’ it says. And it gives me a little jolt of pleasure to reward me for my efficiency.” —Brian McLaren

Confirmation bias is “a state of tension that occurs when a person holds two cognitions (ideas, attitudes, beliefs, opinions) that are psychologically inconsistent with each other.” —Brené Brown, (p. 81)

“When we’re faced with information that challenges what we believe, our first instinct is to make the discomfort, irritation, and vulnerability go away by resolving the dissonance. We might do this by rejecting the new information, decreasing its importance, or avoiding it altogether. The greater the magnitude of the dissonance, the greater is the pressure to reduce dissonance.” —Brené Brown

“There must be, and, if we are honest, there always will be at least one situation in our lives that we cannot fix, control, explain, change, or even understand.” ―Richard Rohr

“Before the truth 'sets you free', it tends to make you miserable.” ―Richard Rohr

“What you decide to look at determines what you do not see.” —Richard Rohr, (Dancing Standing Still, p. 70)

”Not to put too fine a point on it, but it feels like the machinery of late stage capitalism coughed up the internet for us with its empty promises of connecting us all through social media – only to leave us in a mirrored fun house of confirmation bias.
“I feel so surrounded by it that it’s suffocating and I’m left wondering what is real….and what is true when there are such starkly different narratives out there about the world that are then custom delivered to our devices to assure us that we are right about everything.” —Nadia Bolz-Weber

“The biblical text, when treated as a Living Word and not simply a dead policy manual, allows meaning, comfort, and wisdom to unfold in both old and new ways for each community that studies it. It allows the Bible to surprise us, live in us, even interpret us.” —Nadia Bolz-Weber

“Remember, “to survive spiritually,” you will need the “constant influence of the Holy Ghost.” An abundance of speculation and false information in podcasts and on social media surrounds us. Some may protest or question the truth of Church doctrine without knowing or even understanding the fullness of that doctrine. Don’t be persuaded by false or inaccurate information. Discuss your concerns with faithful, well-informed friends and always take those concerns to the Lord.” —Pres. Dallin Oaks

“Sometimes one of the greatest gifts God gives to us is losing our religion. We have to be committed to unlearning the unhelpful, broken, false, or incomplete things if we want to have space to relearn the goodness, joy, and embrace of God. But it sure doesn’t feel like it at the time.” —Sarah Bessey, (p. 31)

“The third thing [the third choice] is our contemplative mind [which] helps us to step outside of that thought and embrace another. But because the God thing, right, the God thing, you and me and Richard as people of faith, we can project those stories, those biases onto God. God has ordained men to lead, women to be quiet. God has ordained white is right, white is powerful. God has ordained straight people....All of that stuff gets stuck in the religion story. So how do we push ourselves to a third space where there’s something else besides squeezing someone in the box.” She goes on to say, “When we quit squeezing people into boxes, we let God out of the box.” —Rev. Dr. Jacqui Lewis

“Part of what we are invited to learn out here in the wilderness is how to metabolize that loss into compassion rather than bitterness, into welcome rather than caution.” —Sarah Bessey, (p. 78)

“God of desert prophets and unlikely messiahs,
”Help us set aside our pride enough to see how little we really know. Humble us. And then raise us up as agents of your peace. Show us that there is more to see than what we look for. More possibility. More love. More forgiveness. When we look upon those we consider enemies, help us see them as your children loved madly by you. Help others who view us as their enemies to also see us as your beloved children. Heal this nation. Heal the people in this room, Lord. Restore our sight so that we may see you in each other.
”We’re not going to bother asking politely because we are basically out of other options. Show yourself, Lord. And if you are already doing that and we are too blind to see, then grant us even bad vision, since even that would be a vast improvement.
”We ask all of this and that for which we have no words in the name of Jesus Christ, friend of sinners of every variety, Amen.” —Nadia Bolz-Weber

Many thanks to listener Erica Larsen for her work in transcribing this episode!

This episode can be found on any podcast app or can be listened to here on our website as well. All the notes and resources we cited in the episode are found at this link as well:

Listen Here

CW: Anything that doesn’t validate our existing beliefs, anything that doesn’t support our doctrine, anything that gives like a different slant to a story.

SH: Yeah.

CW: Is what I think we called Anti.

SH: Yes. Yes.

CW: I mean, we were specifically taught to only read and watch and listen to materials that support church teachings. I think that was explicit.

SH: Hello, I’m Susan Hinkley.

CW: I’m Cynthia Winward,

SH: And this is At Last She Said It. We are Women of Faith discussing complicated things. And the title of today’s episode is Big Ideas: Confirmation Bias.

Okay. But before we start, Cynthia, I’m going to… just... I’m just gonna do it. I’m gonna make a plea for donations right at the beginning of the show.

Okay. I mean, we appreciate everyone who supports At Last She Said It, whether that be through subscribing to our substack with a paid subscription, or whether that be just hitting the donate button, right, and making a donation. Or we have people who send us checks or Venmo, but we very often tout the benefits of being a paid substack subscriber. But today I’m just gonna ask for straight up donations.

So, great either way that you wanna support us, but

CW: Great either way.

SH: Yeah, we do have expenses. They continue six years in. I know that you know, we were novel a while ago and we’re not now. But our expenses remain the same, and so we could use some help.

CW: Our expenses have actually gone up because we’re tired and so we have brought on a few more people to help us.

SH: Right.

CW: And we have so many good people that say to us all the time, please don’t ever stop doing this. And it’s like, well, it’s also really hard to do a job for practically free, even if it is a labor of love.

SH: Correct.

CW: But you and I were recently looking into maybe commercials to kind of solve this problem.

SH: Right.

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