“If history shows that patriarchy is bad for women, and data shows that girls and women fare better when they can see themselves at every level of leadership in our churches, schools, and societies…why do LDS women and men continue to cling to old ideas that deny history and data?” On this episode, Cynthia poses this question and others in a discussion detailing the list of possible opportunities for service and representation from which women are excluded in our church.
Notes & Quotes:
The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth, by Beth Allison Barr
It’s Good For Girls to Have Clergywomen, Study Shows, by Jana Riess, Religion News Service, July 2018
Your Divine Nature and Eternal Destiny, by Elder Dale G. Renlund, April 2022
Kate Bowler on Facebook
“Instead of being a point of pride for Christians, shouldn’t the historical continuity of a practice that has caused women to fare much worse than men for thousands of years cause concern? Shouldn’t Christians, who are called to be different from the world, treat women differently? What if patriarchy isn’t divinely ordained but is a result of human sin?” —Beth Allison Barr
“Research has determined “that having women clergy makes a significant impact on the lives of girls. Girls who had direct examples of clergywomen in childhood grow up with higher self-esteem, better employment, and more education than girls who did not.” —Jana Riess
The feeder is empty again
and no one is claiming that the birds are greedy
for taking what they pleased.
Look at how the fat, pink flowers
are weighing down the end of each branch,
sucking nutrients into each velvet petal.
How selfish.
Nature hungers, takes and needs.
God, why can’t I?
Blessed are we, learning to take what we need.
Sleeping past our alarms.
Reaching for another helping.
Staying a little longer when the evening is unwinding.
Blessed are we, ignoring the rising anxiety
that our needs are somehow silly
Because we’ve survived this long
without the pleasures of wanting.
God, let these needs be the good sign
of the greening of my life.
—A Blessing, by Kate Bowler
“Demanding revelation from God is both arrogant and unproductive. Instead, we wait on the Lord and His timetable to reveal His truths through the means that He has established.” —Elder Dale G. Renlund
Adam Freeman
This PODCAST is going to stick with me for a very long time. Thank you Sisters. 7 years ago, when our daughter was 11, we had to make a terrible choice. Either hope and work towards making the church a healthy place for her as she entered those critical teen years, or stop supporting the the church and find her an environment that would help her thrive and reach her full potential. As you certainly know (but I had to figure out), the patriarchy doesn’t just affect women and girls on Sunday, it affects them every day, all the time. Limiting their position in a faith that is so central to their lives, forces them to put harmful limits on themselves outside of church as well. For me as a dad, coming to that realization was hard (don’t get me started on the girls who wanted to race in the Pinewood Derby, couldn’t, and instead were forced to the sidelines as cheerleaders). After heart-wrenching soul searching, prayer, and long deliberations, we decided that while the church may end up improving over time for women, it would definitely not happen before damage would be done to our daughter. So, we made terrible choice to leave the church understanding the consequences that the decision would have on our relationships with friends, family, and our world. 7 years later, I can confidently say that was the right decision for us. Our daughter has seemingly infinite possibilities ahead of her, she knows she’s equal, that we have high expectations for her, and she’s rising to the challenge. Equality has also affected my sons who aren’t burdened with maintaining the patriarchy, but can focus on succeeding or failing based on their own merits. I am a far better husband and father without the patriarchy. I try to engage where it matters, support my wife in many ways that would have terrified me before, and be present with my kids. I even know who my kids doctor is, and take my turns getting them to appointments. (I know, I proudly accept your gold stars). I won’t speak for my wife on her experiences…because I’m learning how not to do that.
With all of the positives, I still wish that we didn’t feel forced to make that choice. We didn’t leave a church, we left a community that we had worked hard help to maintain. Critical relationships with close family and friends were lost or significantly altered because of it. In particular, my relationship with my brothers, mother, nieces, and nephews will never be the same.
Thank you sisters for the work you are doing. I pray that you are able to help soften hearts so that truly meaningful and positive change starts happening so that others aren’t forced to make such a terrible decision. We should be able to proudly raise our daughters as Mormons, AND give them an environment where they are truly equal and can thrive.
I still have my name in the records of the church, and in my heart still consider myself a Mormon. If change happens, I’ll be glad to attend sacrament meeting again, sing the Hymns with the Saints, and rejoin my community.
Gill
I just keep listening to the essay at the beginning and am shook. Thank you for this!
Brittany
Yes! I asked if I could help at YW camp because one of my daughters gets extreme anxiety. The bishop told me no despite the camp leader begging for help. Today I was told they don’t have enough drivers and I’m still not approved to go. Men should not have a say in this.
ElleK
That essay, Cynthia. Wow.
I’d also add that women cannot select speakers for sacrament meeting, stake conference, or general conference, not even for their own women’s meeting.
D
Thanks for this episode. It was hard for me to listen to, but also good to hear someone talking about these sensitive things. One moment that really stood out for me was when Susan said that she didn’t think that Heavenly Father would see her as “less than.” Unfortunately, participation in the church has not left me with this confidence. While I know that I am not “less than” men, I can’t say that my participation at church or my understanding and attempts to connect with God have helped me feel valued. I realized recently that my spiritual and emotional needs were not being met either through my participation in church or in my moments of silent pleading to God. I admire women who are able to maintain the conviction that God loves them in the midst of a patriarchal institution, but ultimately I found myself left with the feeling that God either didn’t know me or didn’t care, and I had to make the choice between stepping away and letting myself literally drown in despair. I worry about the messaging my daughters will take in as they continue to attend church with my husband, and don’t know what to do to help them avoid what I’ve had to experience.
Mary
Great start to a critical discussion. When it comes to the church (not the Gospel, but the church), women are unquestionably considered and treated as second-class citizens. Women do not hold the priesthood, and women are not given the final say on anything; even women in quasi-leadership positions ultimately answer to a man. (Wasn’t it only a few years ago when a woman was finally allowed to say a prayer in General Conference?) I would like to see this discussion expanded to include one of the most tragic fall-outs of the church’s 100% male power structure: women obediently seeking help from their male “leaders” for extremely serious issues, and the women just get ignored, disbelieved, gaslighted, and patronized by these same “leaders.” By only allowing men to hold top leadership positions, it permits the ongoing culture of men being considered more important, wise, intelligent, and spiritual than women. The end result is women are not taken as seriously, and men get away with protecting their fellow priesthood holders.
Kate
This was such a punch to the gut and I haven’t slept we’ll ever since. Not your fault. It’s just the truth. One thing you missed is that female missionaries cannot hold leadership over male missionaries. We can lead other women, but we are not seen as leaders to the younger men and boys we serve with.
Swanee
Such a great podcast. Thank you for doing this important work. The instagram account mention is spot-on. Cynthia thanks for sharing your article. I’m hooked.