Helping kids navigate the gap between a quickly changing world and a slow-to-change church is a real challenge, especially if many answers aren’t clear cut for a woman herself. Sherry Macnab joins Cynthia and Susan for an honest conversation about their experiences as Latter-day Saint mothers. The feelings, pressures, desires, questions, and decisions—it’s all fair game in this frank discussion between 3 friends who each took the Church’s prescribed path into marriage and motherhood, and want to talk about those choices now.
nowthen
I am the most outspoken member of the church that you have never met. I am a believing Melchizedek priesthood holder. It is not possible to speak openly and honestly at church. I push as hard as I can, while attempting to remain in “good standing”, but I have recently been denied a temple recommend. This means that I cannot escort my son as he receives his own endowment, just before he leaves on his mission. I almost lost my recommend before my daughter was married in the temple. The temple recommend is a weapon of extraordinary power. It is being used to prevent people from expressing critical thought. Our leadership have turned this church into a cult. I will attempt to turn that around but it will give the thought police a greater sense of justification as they harm people.
My eldest daughter was an incredibly virtuous young woman. She never did anything wrong. She was an angel. The more educated and articulate she became, the more the local leadership hounded her. She obtained the best possible degree from the best university in the country; she is going to be one of the foremost philosophers in our academic community, but she was damaged by her treatment at church. To protect her mental health she left the church. The church has lost what would have been a prolific and powerful voice on behalf of people of our faith. And she has lost…..her faith.
nowthen
The problem with girls leaving the church is that there is an excess of girls, particularly in our country. Church leadership care far more if young men leave the church.
Here is something else for you to consider. I don’t know if you will touch on this later in the podcast (I am half way through). We spoke a lot about the subordination of women in the church. Let me ask you this: what do you think was the impact on my sons who had seen their older sisters being unable to be ordained? They were ashamed. It marred their experience of ordination and their participation in priesthood ordinances. They felt guilty. This does not only harm our daughters. If the leaders of our church have some insight on the subject let them argue their corner in a far more honest and intelligent way, because the arguments we hear are illogical.
"Felicity"
I’m a little late to the party but I just listened to this episode.
I’m a childless stepmom to two girls. I have gotten CRAP for not having biological children even though it specifically says in my patriarchal blessing that I will NOT have children of my own. (Not that I read my blessing to randoms.)
I thought I wanted to be a mom but I didn’t get married until I was 34. When my now husband and I were family planning, he said that he didn’t want any more children and at first, it broke my heart. I wasn’t entirely sure that I wanted children of my own, I was just devastated that he had taken that option from me without discussing it first. Don’t get me wrong, I love my stepdaughters as my own, but I thought I wanted my own. As you all said, as small girls, Young Women, and women in general, we are taught to have children and that’s all we should aspire to do. So when he said that he didn’t want any more children, the proverbial rug was pulled out from under me and I felt like my “purpose” here on earth was taken away.
Now that I’m older (ack! 41 this year!), I’m grateful that I didn’t have my own children. I was able to get a college degree – although I had that before I met hubby – and I’m at a great point in my career. I have money for retirement and I have money to travel, buy shoes whenever I want, and do basically whatever I want with my money after bills have been paid. I was abused as a child so I didn’t have a positive motherly role model. I didn’t want to risk doing that to my children. I’ve also had mental health problems and if I’d had children, I could have potentially passed them down to my kids.
I have discovered that I am too selfish to have children of my own. I like sleeping through the night. I like being able to go travel when work permits. I like being able to buy shoes.
I’m all over the place, but I did have one last thought. As you said, some girls just want to be moms, that’s it, and that’s fine for them. It just breaks my heart when these girls get married at 18 and start becoming baby-making factories. There’s a great big world out there and they don’t get to see it. They go to college to get their M.R.S. degree (as my poor mother-in-law did) and they don’t bother getting actual degrees. It scares me for them. It’s archaic and absurd that girls do this in 2022. It’s ridiculous that men are telling women to have all of these children and that’s all we should do. Are men really that scared of what women could potentially do with the world that they want to keep us home, barefoot and pregnant?
Ashley
Hey I am a 29 year old mom of two small kids out on a run listening to this episode. I recently found and really love your podcast and appreciate your expression of nuanced faith. I just wanted to say that in the first few minutes of this podcast, around minute 8 I believe, I was disappointed by the way you talked about your daughters that have left the church. You said you hadn’t “managed them” well and as a result they are not in the church. I personally found this hurtful, as it felt like you were implying that either you failed as a mom or your daughters are lost in someway for leaving the church, a common platitude in the church. This may not be what was intended, however, it’s the way I heard it. I don’t think it’s a parent’s job to “manage” children. Isn’t it possible, following some of the themes of this discussion, that children and adult children may be the experts on their own lives and that what might work for one child may not for others? That some women find much more hope, happiness, spirituality, positivity and health outside of the church than in? Good for 12 year old Abby that she feels at this point she can speak her mind. I hope she can keep that determination to do so as she moves through the young women program and into adulthood. Some women intentionally choose to protect themselves, their families, or their spirituality by limiting engagement and not putting themselves in spaces where their values are violated and they face inevitable push back and ostracization when they speak honestly. I don’t think it’s fair to judge them or to compare them to a 12 year old. I have to say that if I heard my mom talk about myself or sisters in this way I would feel hurt and not seen or understood. This episode kind of came across for me as the end-all be-all of marker of success in parenting is if you figured out how to help your kids stay in the church. I don’t believe people are lost now or in eternity if they step away. Leaving the church for some is a brave and bold decision and I think daughters and women who leave deserve recognition for forging their own spiritual path and knowing themselves and their needs. These are good things to teach girls and mothers can be proud of their daughters who use discernment and wisdom to know what is best for them and having the integrity to follow that. Obviously, women leaving is a loss to the church but it is on the church to become a place in which women are valued. Some women may choose to stay and that’s beautiful. I was interested in your guest talking about watching general conference and saying that “as usual” she was vocalizing something she was upset about. I love this for her and her family and so glad she is speaking about how she feels honestly (I am in the church and in a similar position, so I relate)! But I also think we can benefit by recognizing that others may choose to limit the negativity, frustration and resentment to promote and model peace and health. I don’t often speak my mind, but trying to follow your example 🙂 thanks for what you’re doing!